Author Topic: Wednesday afternoon plenary part 2  (Read 10509 times)

Chuck Sampson

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Re: Wednesday afternoon plenary part 2
« Reply #60 on: August 19, 2011, 10:57:10 PM »
Peter writes:
 Nobody is for bullying and everybody knows it exists. Resolutions concerning those facts do nothing.

I comment:
What world do you live in? Do you even read the newspapers? (Oh, wait, the nasty liberal media just make up those stories about teens bullied into suicide or harassed by the cliques who try to define what it means to be "real" in the halls of Pleasantville High School.)
Charles, perhaps if you could control your impulsive need to post and actually READ what Peter wrote you would see that he was in no way denying the existence of bullying:  "everybody knows it exists".   We may or may not read "the nasty liberal media" but its painfully obvious that you do a rather superficial job of reading the posts to which you respond.

Charles_Austin

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Re: Wednesday afternoon plenary part 2
« Reply #61 on: August 19, 2011, 11:06:36 PM »
"Everybody" does not know it exists. And even if "everybody" does, that still means there will have to be some concrete steps taken to deal with it.
The real deal here is the fact that the anti-bullying resolution started with Lutherans Concerned/North America and mentioned bullying of gay and lesbian teens. Folks here are so wigged out about anything that organization deals with that they see terror and ruin all about. Hogwash.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Wednesday afternoon plenary part 2
« Reply #62 on: August 20, 2011, 01:21:13 AM »
"Everybody" does not know it exists. And even if "everybody" does, that still means there will have to be some concrete steps taken to deal with it.
The real deal here is the fact that the anti-bullying resolution started with Lutherans Concerned/North America and mentioned bullying of gay and lesbian teens. Folks here are so wigged out about anything that organization deals with that they see terror and ruin all about. Hogwash.


Sort of like a post on this forum from you or me -- for some, they can't be anything good.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Team Hesse

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Re: Wednesday afternoon plenary part 2
« Reply #63 on: August 20, 2011, 08:03:56 AM »
A couple of weeks ago, I had a close conversation with a Pastor colleague of mine because I needed some advice on a delicate matter with one of my parishioners. The conversation was helpful and eventually wandered into the subject of how the church (and us Pastors in particular) fail the sinner placed in our midst. Both of our ministerial lives have been affected by a man who kept his behavior hidden for about 40 years because he knew if he had ever sought help from anyone for his bondage it would result in his immediate casting out as far as possible from any degree of human community-he was a pedophile, who was powerless to stop. How much better society would have been served if when he had first felt those desires he could have known that he could confess to a Pastor and been encouraged to find a place where he could live his life in a community that would help him to never bring those desires to action. Perhaps a secluded monastery somewhere where he could have devoted his life to study, prayer, and developing his gifts in ways that would benefit others. He had a brilliant mind and an insightful scholarly appetite. Instead he faced his temptations alone, and failed. He was eventually found out, was convicted, and spent the last years of his life on the bottom rung of the class system found in all prisons. And the rest of us had to deal with the fallout of his wicked actions.

We have to deal with LCNA because, as a community of fellow sinners known as "church", we have not properly distinguished law and Gospel and have not properly ministered to our fellow sinners. We will now pay the price for our failure and it will not stop until we repent or God brings all things to His appointed end.

Lou

Charles_Austin

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Re: Wednesday afternoon plenary part 2
« Reply #64 on: August 20, 2011, 08:18:09 AM »
What does the presence of a pedophile have to do with dealing with LCNA (or CORE or any other group) in the lives of our churches?
Pastors here can tell you of dealing with men who have abused their wives, mothers who have abused their children or betrayed their husband, and a range of convicted felons.
I suspect that if we somehow found the absolutely perfect, fail-safe, works-every-time way of "distinguishing law and gospel" those folks would still be present among us.

Team Hesse

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Re: Wednesday afternoon plenary part 2
« Reply #65 on: August 20, 2011, 08:42:41 AM »
What does the presence of a pedophile have to do with dealing with LCNA (or CORE or any other group) in the lives of our churches?
Pastors here can tell you of dealing with men who have abused their wives, mothers who have abused their children or betrayed their husband, and a range of convicted felons.
I suspect that if we somehow found the absolutely perfect, fail-safe, works-every-time way of "distinguishing law and gospel" those folks would still be present among us.


I guess I shouldn't be surprised you don't understand. I'm sorry I brought it up. Some on this board have been asking me to post more.

There will always be sinners among us-- the question is how we minister to them. We can pander to them or we walk with them and encourage them to refrain from whatever it is that is a problem. That was my point.
That we don't understand each other is a sad commentary on how far apart supposed Lutherans have drifted in the last 500 years. But we shouldn't really expect anything different from sinners like us.

Lou

DCharlton

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Re: Wednesday afternoon plenary part 2
« Reply #66 on: August 20, 2011, 12:52:39 PM »
"Everybody" does not know it exists. And even if "everybody" does, that still means there will have to be some concrete steps taken to deal with it.
The real deal here is the fact that the anti-bullying resolution started with Lutherans Concerned/North America and mentioned bullying of gay and lesbian teens. Folks here are so wigged out about anything that organization deals with that they see terror and ruin all about. Hogwash.

I don't recall anyone objecting to the mention of gay and lesbian teens.  I found it odd that any such reference had been omitted.  Would you please clarify your statement?
David Charlton  

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Re: Wednesday afternoon plenary part 2
« Reply #67 on: August 20, 2011, 01:22:45 PM »
"Everybody" does not know it exists. And even if "everybody" does, that still means there will have to be some concrete steps taken to deal with it.
The real deal here is the fact that the anti-bullying resolution started with Lutherans Concerned/North America and mentioned bullying of gay and lesbian teens. Folks here are so wigged out about anything that organization deals with that they see terror and ruin all about. Hogwash.


Sort of like a post on this forum from you or me -- for some, they can't be anything good.

I don't think that is fair Brian.  I think the majority of those who respond to you attempt to engage the ideas you present and the reasons you give for your positions.  You likewise tend to respond to ideas and reasons.   That a majority find your position untenable and your reasons unconvincing does not mean that they have not given you a fair hearing.  Some do belittle anything you write, but if most did, there never would be long threads consisting of posts by Brian and his interlocutors.

Charles, on the other hand, tends to focus on the person who makes the post.  He seldom gives reasons in favor of a position, but argues that others are motivated by ignorance, prejudice, paranoia and the like.  If you consider the post that you quoted you see an example.  Although many have given the reasons they object to the inclusion of LC/NA in the resolution, he ignores that, and assumes that any objection must be motivated by a irrational fear.   

« Last Edit: August 20, 2011, 01:30:29 PM by DCharlton »
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Wednesday afternoon plenary part 2
« Reply #68 on: August 20, 2011, 01:37:14 PM »
"Everybody" does not know it exists. And even if "everybody" does, that still means there will have to be some concrete steps taken to deal with it.
The real deal here is the fact that the anti-bullying resolution started with Lutherans Concerned/North America and mentioned bullying of gay and lesbian teens. Folks here are so wigged out about anything that organization deals with that they see terror and ruin all about. Hogwash.


Sort of like a post on this forum from you or me -- for some, they can't be anything good.

I don't think that is fair Brian.  I think the majority of those who respond to you attempt to engage the ideas you present and the reasons you give for your positions.  You likewise tend to respond to ideas and reasons.   That a majority find your position untenable and your reasons unconvincing does not mean that they have not given you a fair hearing.  Some do belittle anything you write, but if most did, there never would be long threads consisting of posts by Brian and his interlocutors.

Charles, on the other hand, tends to focus on the person who makes the post.  He seldom gives reasons in favor of a position, but argues that others are motivated by ignorance, prejudice, paranoia and the like.  If you consider the post that you quoted you see an example.  Although many have given the reasons they object to the inclusion of LC/NA in the resolution, he ignores that, and assumes that any objection must be motivated by a irrational fear.


A few have made it clear that Charles and I are on their ignore list. There are many others, who may not agree with me, but who remain respectful. There are also those who agree with me, and send my private e-mails (and Charles has received some, too,) because they don't dare post in this forum because of the bashings they've seen dished out against us by a few.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

DCharlton

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Re: Wednesday afternoon plenary part 2
« Reply #69 on: August 20, 2011, 01:47:58 PM »
"Everybody" does not know it exists. And even if "everybody" does, that still means there will have to be some concrete steps taken to deal with it.
The real deal here is the fact that the anti-bullying resolution started with Lutherans Concerned/North America and mentioned bullying of gay and lesbian teens. Folks here are so wigged out about anything that organization deals with that they see terror and ruin all about. Hogwash.


Sort of like a post on this forum from you or me -- for some, they can't be anything good.

I don't think that is fair Brian.  I think the majority of those who respond to you attempt to engage the ideas you present and the reasons you give for your positions.  You likewise tend to respond to ideas and reasons.   That a majority find your position untenable and your reasons unconvincing does not mean that they have not given you a fair hearing.  Some do belittle anything you write, but if most did, there never would be long threads consisting of posts by Brian and his interlocutors.

Charles, on the other hand, tends to focus on the person who makes the post.  He seldom gives reasons in favor of a position, but argues that others are motivated by ignorance, prejudice, paranoia and the like.  If you consider the post that you quoted you see an example.  Although many have given the reasons they object to the inclusion of LC/NA in the resolution, he ignores that, and assumes that any objection must be motivated by a irrational fear.


A few have made it clear that Charles and I are on their ignore list. There are many others, who may not agree with me, but who remain respectful. There are also those who agree with me, and send my private e-mails (and Charles has received some, too,) because they don't dare post in this forum because of the bashings they've seen dished out against us by a few.

It is true that some belittle you, have you on their ignore list, or bash you.  You seldom get personal.  And there is no reason for people to get personal when addressing you.  Bashing is what you call it.   However, Charles gives as good as he gets.  His responses to others are almost always personal.  And remember, the statement by Charles that you quoted was not about the ignorers and bashers, but about anyone and everyone who objected to the inclusion of LC/NA in the resolution.  He implies that everyone who made such an objection is motivated by paranoia and prejudice.  This is exactly the kind of bashing you undergo when people dismiss your posts by saying, "Brian is an idiot."
« Last Edit: August 20, 2011, 01:52:03 PM by DCharlton »
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Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Wednesday afternoon plenary part 2
« Reply #70 on: August 20, 2011, 01:48:41 PM »
We have to deal with LCNA because, as a community of fellow sinners known as "church", we have not properly distinguished law and Gospel and have not properly ministered to our fellow sinners. We will now pay the price for our failure and it will not stop until we repent or God brings all things to His appointed end.


Thank you, Lou.

Fraternally, Steven+
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