Author Topic: Tuesday afternoon  (Read 5738 times)

Richard Johnson

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Tuesday afternoon
« on: August 16, 2011, 02:03:23 PM »
If you're wondering why there's nothing happening Tuesday afternoon, it isn't that nothing's happening. There's just no plenary. There is Bible study for a while, then something being called "Mission Encounter." Next plenary isn't until Wednesday morning. I don't know if any of this other stuff is being webcast, but I kind of doubt it.

BTW, the worship this morning was, as they say, not as bad as it could have been. The sermon was actually engaging and thoughtful. Music was largely multicultural. There was a "hymn" by Omer Westendorf that I found problematic:
We eat the bread of teaching, drink wine of wisdom, are given here a taste of the kingdom. Together joined, the greatest and the least, we all are one at Wisdom's holy feast.
 I know it's supposed to be based on Scriptural images, but really, shouldn't a "hymn of the day" in a Eucharistic service make SOME overt mention of Christ, or even of God?
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RPG

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Re: Tuesday afternoon
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2011, 02:32:29 PM »
We eat the bread of teaching, drink wine of wisdom, are given here a taste of the kingdom. Together joined, the greatest and the least, we all are one at Wisdom's holy feast.
 I know it's supposed to be based on Scriptural images, but really, shouldn't a "hymn of the day" in a Eucharistic service make SOME overt mention of Christ, or even of God?

We sang that one at a synod assembly a couple of years ago when I was on internship.  I turned to my supervising pastor and asked "just who exactly is this 'wisdom' to whom we refer?"

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revklak

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Re: Tuesday afternoon
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2011, 03:19:56 PM »
Well, there is the tradition (a strand, at least) which saw Jesus as Wisdom incarnate.

Only in the most recent past, "Lady Wisdom," as she was sometimes referred to, has more been seen as a female counterpart to the TRinity, rather than an OT literary figure, a pre-type of Christ, ie. the eternally present Word.

But then again, I'm don't think that this was necessarily helpful in assessing this, uh, interesting hymn

Dan Fienen

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Re: Tuesday afternoon
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2011, 03:25:36 PM »
I have often wondered if considering Wisdom in the Old Testament to be female of any more meaning that considering ships in English to be female?  Aren't both linguistic gender rather than any kind of biological gender?

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Terry W Culler

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Re: Tuesday afternoon
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2011, 03:29:15 PM »
Dan's right.  If God has no gender and therefore can not be referred to by the traditional usage, then Wisdom, however you mean it, can have no gender either and referring to Wisdom as a female is equally wrong.  But then who cares about logic when you can pester people for fun.
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Re: Tuesday afternoon
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2011, 03:53:04 PM »
I have often wondered if considering Wisdom in the Old Testament to be female of any more meaning that considering ships in English to be female?  Aren't both linguistic gender rather than any kind of biological gender?

Dan

Hence, I think at most a literary figure/device as in "Wisdom cries out in the street; in the squares she raises her voice.  At the busiest corner she cries out; at the entrance of the city gates she speaks:  "How long, O simple ones, will you love being simple?"... (Proverbs 1:20-22)

Or in the Book of Wisdom, how beautiful and poetic it is...

But as a PERSON, a goddess, a being in her own right?  Now, now, Wisdom is, after all, God's Wisdom.   

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Re: Tuesday afternoon
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2011, 04:08:36 PM »
If we're using dicey metaphors like this to refer to communion, it should be pointed out that every single person on the planet "eats the bread of teaching" all the time, which is not the same thing as eating the bread of Truth. But Richard, you are too cynical. Wisdom was capitalized, so for everyone in the know God was referenced.

Richard Johnson

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Re: Tuesday afternoon
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2011, 04:12:20 PM »
If we're using dicey metaphors like this to refer to communion, it should be pointed out that every single person on the planet "eats the bread of teaching" all the time, which is not the same thing as eating the bread of Truth. But Richard, you are too cynical. Wisdom was capitalized, so for everyone in the know God was referenced.

Yes, but Which One?
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J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: Tuesday afternoon
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2011, 04:17:16 PM »
If we're using dicey metaphors like this to refer to communion, it should be pointed out that every single person on the planet "eats the bread of teaching" all the time, which is not the same thing as eating the bread of Truth. But Richard, you are too cynical. Wisdom was capitalized, so for everyone in the know God was referenced.

Yes, but Which One?

Capitalized Wisdom could well refer to Minerva in the Roman pantheon.   

Those merely listening to the service would be bereft of seeing the capitalization.
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Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Tuesday afternoon
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2011, 04:22:54 PM »
If God has no gender and therefore can not be referred to by the traditional usage, then Wisdom, however you mean it, can have no gender either and referring to Wisdom as a female is equally wrong. 


God has a gender -- masculine. 

He doesn't have a sex.  Well, not in 2 of his persons.  The Son, Jesus Christ, is male.

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Terry W Culler

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Re: Tuesday afternoon
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2011, 07:12:36 AM »
You're right Steven, although I do think the modern idea that gender and sex are distinct is something of a distinction without a difference.  I wasn't implying that God had no gender identification--He has the one He gave us.  And certainly the Son is a fully human, as well as fully divine Man.  I was simply commenting on what some of those who would have us altering language to cater to somebody's distain for all things masculine should consider when they throw these ideas out.
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Charles_Austin

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Re: Tuesday afternoon
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2011, 07:16:49 AM »
The sex, gender, physiognomy or coffee preference of the Holy Trinity has not come up at the ELCA Assembly.

revklak

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Re: Tuesday afternoon
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2011, 08:27:06 AM »
The sex, gender, physiognomy or coffee preference of the Holy Trinity has not come up at the ELCA Assembly.

Of course not, its obvious it would be Maxwll House --- "Good to the last drop!"

Team Hesse

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Re: Tuesday afternoon
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2011, 08:56:36 AM »
The sex, gender, physiognomy or coffee preference of the Holy Trinity has not come up at the ELCA Assembly.

Of course not, its obvious it would be Maxwll House --- "Good to the last drop!"

Heretic! It must be "Free Trade Coffee" from the loving hands of the true serving poor without the stain of western, imperial, corporate Greed.

Lou

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Re: Tuesday afternoon
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2011, 09:28:07 AM »
The sex, gender, physiognomy or coffee preference of the Holy Trinity has not come up at the ELCA Assembly.

Of course not, its obvious it would be Maxwll House --- "Good to the last drop!"

Heretic! It must be "Free Trade Coffee" from the loving hands of the true serving poor without the stain of western, imperial, corporate Greed.

Lou


Lou, Lou, Lou --


It's not "Free Trade Coffee."  That's for heartless capitalists who don't understand that what you call "free" trade is merely a tool of oppression and injustice wielded by the rich and by farmers. 


It's "Fair Trade Coffee."