Author Topic: CORE/NALC  (Read 4350 times)

revklak

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Re: CORE/NALC
« Reply #30 on: August 14, 2011, 01:55:52 PM »
For what it's worth, after very cordial discussion, nobody voted in favor of replacing "wine" with "cup."  And the motion to replace "Trinity" with "F, S, and HS" was approved with few or no votes against.


I find this a bit ironic. On one hand, they don't want to use the biblical word, "cup," found in all four accounts of the words of institution, while the word "wine" is in none of them! Two of the four mention, "fruit of the vine". (While I believe that it was wine in the cup, I think that the use of "cup" is more than just a synonym for "wine" in that context.) On the other hand, they replace the non-biblical word, "Trinity," with the biblical phrase, "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."

I think these were not only perfectly good adjustments, but not 'ironic' in the sense that they drifted in two directions (biblical vs. non-bliblical).  Not that we ever wanted to get to this point, but recenty history has taught us the value of being S-P-E-C-I-F-I-C.  For while Trinity is a very confessional and sound doctrinal word, its 'poetic-ness' and beauty can be open to ambiguity in which folks pray and baptize using not the NAME of the TRIUNE God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), but by attributes or descriptors (Creator, Redeemer,Sanctifier)  Since we've hashed this out other places, suffice it to say this change places us squarely in the camp of orthodoxy and without leaving wiggle room for others to "adjust" and "broaden" interpretations and language.  Creator, redeemer and sanctifier called still be used, but they cannot replace the NAME.

And with the wine vs. cup, I think its rather obvious that while wine or cup are often used synonomously, while not being exactly the same, its the WINE that is the BLOOD of Christ which brings salvation, not the particular or general cup - which does express it beautifully in a poetic sense.  (Besides, the word for cup could also be translated out of the Greek as bowl or chalice -- so which is it, and really, does it MATTER?)


James_Gale

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Re: CORE/NALC
« Reply #31 on: August 14, 2011, 03:30:42 PM »
For what it's worth, after very cordial discussion, nobody voted in favor of replacing "wine" with "cup."  And the motion to replace "Trinity" with "F, S, and HS" was approved with few or no votes against.


I find this a bit ironic. On one hand, they don't want to use the biblical word, "cup," found in all four accounts of the words of institution, while the word "wine" is in none of them! Two of the four mention, "fruit of the vine". (While I believe that it was wine in the cup, I think that the use of "cup" is more than just a synonym for "wine" in that context.) On the other hand, they replace the non-biblical word, "Trinity," with the biblical phrase, "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."


The phrase at issue was "the real presence of Christ in, with, and under the bread and wine."  A delegate moved that "wine" be replaced with "cup."  In the particular phrase at issue, "cup" would not have worked well. 

J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: CORE/NALC
« Reply #32 on: August 14, 2011, 04:39:39 PM »
The phrase at issue was "the real presence of Christ in, with, and under the bread and wine."  A delegate moved that "wine" be replaced with "cup."  In the particular phrase at issue, "cup" would not have worked well.

Aye, in that particular phrase it would have bordered on idolatry.
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: CORE/NALC
« Reply #33 on: August 14, 2011, 06:03:59 PM »
The phrase at issue was "the real presence of Christ in, with, and under the bread and wine."  A delegate moved that "wine" be replaced with "cup."  In the particular phrase at issue, "cup" would not have worked well.

Aye, in that particular phrase it would have bordered on idolatry.


Why would it be any more idolatrous than "bread"?
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

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Re: CORE/NALC
« Reply #34 on: August 14, 2011, 07:06:46 PM »
The phrase at issue was "the real presence of Christ in, with, and under the bread and wine."  A delegate moved that "wine" be replaced with "cup."  In the particular phrase at issue, "cup" would not have worked well.

Aye, in that particular phrase it would have bordered on idolatry.


Why would it be any more idolatrous than "bread"?

So basically you are saying that the container is more important than what it contains . . . righty . . . is Indiana Jones available? 
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dkeener

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Re: CORE/NALC
« Reply #35 on: August 14, 2011, 07:14:19 PM »
The sense that I got was that the convocation had a desire to both retain the traditional language of the Church and reject the obsession with politically correct language that they had experienced in the ELCA. The adoption of the "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" substitution and the quick rejection of the proposed "cup" amendment showed me that these former ELCA people were no longer willing to risk clear understanding and sound theology out of fear of offending someone.


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Re: CORE/NALC
« Reply #36 on: August 14, 2011, 07:35:06 PM »
The phrase at issue was "the real presence of Christ in, with, and under the bread and wine."  A delegate moved that "wine" be replaced with "cup."  In the particular phrase at issue, "cup" would not have worked well.

Aye, in that particular phrase it would have bordered on idolatry.


Why would it be any more idolatrous than "bread"?

So basically you are saying that the container is more important than what it contains . . . righty . . . is Indiana Jones available?


No, I'm raising the possibility that "this" in "this is" might refer to "take and eat" and "take and drink" rather than the loaf or cup. Is the bread the body of Christ if it is not taken and eaten together? Is the cup the new covenant in Christ's blood if the cup is not taken and drunk together? (Technically, the cup is "the new covenant" -- does that new covenant take affect without us drinking from the cup?) I don't necessarily have answers to these questions; but, in line with other discussions about taking scriptures seriously, we should take seriously that "cup" is used and not "wine"; and "new covenant" is the predicate nominative in two of the four words -- not "blood" (and also in the version we use in worship).
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Harvey_Mozolak

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Re: CORE/NALC
« Reply #37 on: August 14, 2011, 08:52:21 PM »
The sense that I got was that the convocation had a desire to both retain the traditional language of the Church and reject the obsession with politically correct language that they had experienced in the ELCA. The adoption of the "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" substitution and the quick rejection of the proposed "cup" amendment showed me that these former ELCA people were no longer willing to risk clear understanding and sound theology out of fear of offending someone.

I think you read the actions correctly.  And I would have vote the same had I been able to attend and not merely watch on my compu, but my interest which no one seemed to pick up back a few remarks was that when you end up having to play the role of guard too much you can end up setting up so many bars and locked doors that you end up with imprisoning rather than living.   Yes, even in the poetic there are renderings of theology in hymns and prayers, for instance, today that go over the edge and should not be used by those of orthodox faith but if you apply too much stricture to the poet, you will end up with some tripe and rehashing and nothing nobly new.   It is an are of concern to me because of the fears that pc language and neutering language use of the Godhead has made us super conscious to the point of seeing things that sometimes aren't there.   At least, I readily admit, I have.     Harvey Mozolak
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Steven Tibbetts

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Re: CORE/NALC
« Reply #38 on: August 14, 2011, 09:53:55 PM »

Why would it be any more idolatrous than "bread"?

I don't know about idolatrous, but bread and wine are the words used in the Catechism.  If that's not good enough for Lutherans, I don't know what is.

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J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: CORE/NALC
« Reply #39 on: August 14, 2011, 10:18:35 PM »

Why would it be any more idolatrous than "bread"?

I don't know about idolatrous, but bread and wine are the words used in the Catechism.  If that's not good enough for Lutherans, I don't know what is.


Both bread and wine are consumed.  The vessel is not.  The closest I have come to consuming a cup is eating a wafflecone.
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Richard Johnson

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Re: CORE/NALC
« Reply #40 on: August 14, 2011, 11:22:04 PM »
You know you don't have to use the "ignore function" in order to ignore inane comments.  :o
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George Erdner

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Re: CORE/NALC
« Reply #41 on: August 15, 2011, 01:21:39 AM »
Is there live coverage by an ALPB person at the Core assembly going on now?

I find it interesting that no one has kvetched about this thread going off-topic yet. No one is talking about whether or not there is live coverage by an ALPB person at the CORE Assembly.

dkeener

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Re: CORE/NALC
« Reply #42 on: August 15, 2011, 08:18:43 AM »
Is there live coverage by an ALPB person at the Core assembly going on now?

I find it interesting that no one has kvetched about this thread going off-topic yet. No one is talking about whether or not there is live coverage by an ALPB person at the CORE Assembly.

I think we have all figured out the answer to the "Live" coverage question.

revklak

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Re: CORE/NALC
« Reply #43 on: August 15, 2011, 09:07:36 AM »
The sense that I got was that the convocation had a desire to both retain the traditional language of the Church and reject the obsession with politically correct language that they had experienced in the ELCA. The adoption of the "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" substitution and the quick rejection of the proposed "cup" amendment showed me that these former ELCA people were no longer willing to risk clear understanding and sound theology out of fear of offending someone.

Found this quote from Benedict XVI (from a few years ago when we was still Cardinal Ratzinger).  It expresses well, I think, the importance of language AND clarity/understanding.  It's in response to persistent petitions to have Mary officially declared "Co-Redemptrix," and explains why the RC will NOT, for the forseeable future and beyond, do so.  And also is a great example of WHY it is good for the Church as a whole to move slowly and doctrinal and theological issues, and not simply acquiesce to the moment/era. (but I digress)  Here is the quote:


“I do not think there will be any compliance with this demand, which in the meantime is being supported by several million people, within the foreseeable future. The response of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is, broadly, that what is signified by this is already better expressed in other titles of Mary, while the formula “Co-redemptrix” departs to too great an extent from the language of Scripture and of the Fathers and therefore gives rise to misunderstandings. ... A correct intention is being expressed in the wrong way. For matters of faith, continuity of terminology with the language of Scripture and that of the Fathers is itself an essential element; it is improper simply to manipulate language.”
Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/mark-shea/jittery-about-mary?utm_source=NCRegister.com&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=9fd370833a-RSS_DAILY_EMAIL#ixzz1Uj29FyaV

I'm just posting this as food for thought for OUR debate about language.. not to start a discussion of RC understandings and interpretations about Mary.  (Though that would be fun and timely considering today is the Feast of the Assumption of Mary, so I assume some of y'all have opinions....)

Harvey_Mozolak

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Re: CORE/NALC
« Reply #44 on: August 15, 2011, 09:20:34 AM »
continuity of terminology with the language of Scripture and that of the Fathers is itself an essential element; it is improper simply to manipulate language.”

And what is the connect and disconnect between language of scripture and continuity of language with the same?   Harvey Mozolak.
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