Author Topic: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism  (Read 7278 times)

Weedon

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #105 on: August 10, 2011, 07:40:03 PM »
My answer is that one cannot do so consistently, due to the weight of the practice inherited and the novelty involved.  A consistent evangelical catholic would not countenance any such novelty.  But that there are a number who are otherwise in the camp of evangelical catholicism and who yet are not prepared to pronounce heretical a practice (with which many exhibit more than degree of discomfort, but which) they're not sure what to do about, there can be little doubt. 
« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 09:31:56 PM by Weedon »
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George Erdner

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #106 on: August 10, 2011, 09:40:50 PM »
Well, take the definition together with the signposts I suggested, George, and see if you can locate anyone who goes by Evangelical Catholic in the Lutheran camp who disagrees.  I'd be quite surprised if you did.

If by "Lutheran Camp" you mean the LC-MS, I don't know enough people in the LC-MS outside of here to be able to mention anyone. If you mean the entire universe of people in all Lutheran church bodies, I've encountered some in the ELCA who use the term Evangelical Catholic who would not conform to the standards you've listed. I've heard of others who insist that no clergyman could possibly be an Evangelical Catholic if he didn't wear a clerical collar whenever he had a shirt on.
 

Weedon

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #107 on: August 10, 2011, 09:44:18 PM »
Well, George, I've never met such a critter ever.  I'd invite a query of all on this discussion board - ELCA or LCMS or any other Lutheran group, who consider themselves evangelical catholic:  do you agree or not with the definition and the description I have suggested?  Please let us know, so that George can find out whether the term has a meaning or not.  Anyone???
William Weedon, Assistant Pastor
St. Paul Lutheran Church, Hamel IL
Catechist on LPR Podcast: The Word of the Lord Endures Forever
A Daily, Verse-by-Verse Bible Study with the Church, Past and Present
www.thewordendures.org

+Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum

lucan

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #108 on: August 10, 2011, 10:03:03 PM »
Here's a question. Can a person be regarded as being an authentic evangelical catholic and support and promote the ordination of women to the pastoral office?

Here's a question: Do you LCMS-ers turn every thread into a discussion of women's ordination?    Sheesh.  Start a new thread if you wish to discuss this.

Let's get back to the topic.

lucan

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #109 on: August 10, 2011, 10:06:07 PM »
You just might be an evangelical catholic if...

...you believe that "our churches keep the Mass" means that.
...you treasure the Daily Office.
...you make use of the joys of Private Absolution.
...you believe that the Office of the Ministry is a divinely established institution, and though you recognize that the canonical ordination is only of human right, you still value it as a sign of the catholicity of the ministry.
...you find ecclesiastic ceremonies (vestments; ritual actions) to be reverent and fitting additions for the celebration of the Mass and the Office and other churchly functions even while you steadfastly confess that they are not divinely mandated or intrinsically necessary.
...you believe that the current generation is not automatically the best judge or jury for ecclesiastic practice, let alone confession of the faith - so you consider the wisdom of those who have gone before you in the faith in matters both of faith and practice, giving special attention to the Book of Concord and the Creeds contained therein.

I suggest if you check the list, you'll find that those who say "amen" are those who tend to identify themselves as evangelical catholics.  As to taking the Reformation as the starting point, if you think that's not a common mindset, I'm quite surprised.  It is often QUITE common among those who are most adamant about being Lutheran.

Yes, this is a good list.  I would say, contra George, that it would be difficult to find an evangelical catholic that did not hold to the spirit of what you've stated.

George Erdner

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #110 on: August 10, 2011, 10:45:13 PM »
You just might be an evangelical catholic if...

...you believe that "our churches keep the Mass" means that.
...you treasure the Daily Office.
...you make use of the joys of Private Absolution.
...you believe that the Office of the Ministry is a divinely established institution, and though you recognize that the canonical ordination is only of human right, you still value it as a sign of the catholicity of the ministry.
...you find ecclesiastic ceremonies (vestments; ritual actions) to be reverent and fitting additions for the celebration of the Mass and the Office and other churchly functions even while you steadfastly confess that they are not divinely mandated or intrinsically necessary.
...you believe that the current generation is not automatically the best judge or jury for ecclesiastic practice, let alone confession of the faith - so you consider the wisdom of those who have gone before you in the faith in matters both of faith and practice, giving special attention to the Book of Concord and the Creeds contained therein.

I suggest if you check the list, you'll find that those who say "amen" are those who tend to identify themselves as evangelical catholics.  As to taking the Reformation as the starting point, if you think that's not a common mindset, I'm quite surprised.  It is often QUITE common among those who are most adamant about being Lutheran.

Yes, this is a good list.  I would say, contra George, that it would be difficult to find an evangelical catholic that did not hold to the spirit of what you've stated.

The problem is that Pastor Weedon's list can also be applied to a great many people who do NOT consider themselves Evangelical Catholic. For a definition of Evangelical Catholic to be complete, it must be broad enough to include all who consider themselves part of that set, and narrow enough to exclude all who are not part of that set. And, as I said earlier, that is based on the understanding that "Evangelical Catholics" are a subset of the larger group "Lutheran Christians". Since all Evangelical Catholics are Lutherans, but not all Lutherans are Evangelical Catholics, conditions that define people as Lutherans do not necessarily define them as Evangalical Catholics.

Weedon

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #111 on: August 10, 2011, 10:50:30 PM »
I, for one, am by no means certain that not all Lutherans are evangelical catholics.  FWIW.
William Weedon, Assistant Pastor
St. Paul Lutheran Church, Hamel IL
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Erma S. Wolf

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #112 on: August 10, 2011, 11:06:44 PM »
You just might be an evangelical catholic if...

...you believe that "our churches keep the Mass" means that.
...you treasure the Daily Office.
...you make use of the joys of Private Absolution.
...you believe that the Office of the Ministry is a divinely established institution, and though you recognize that the canonical ordination is only of human right, you still value it as a sign of the catholicity of the ministry.
...you find ecclesiastic ceremonies (vestments; ritual actions) to be reverent and fitting additions for the celebration of the Mass and the Office and other churchly functions even while you steadfastly confess that they are not divinely mandated or intrinsically necessary.
...you believe that the current generation is not automatically the best judge or jury for ecclesiastic practice, let alone confession of the faith - so you consider the wisdom of those who have gone before you in the faith in matters both of faith and practice, giving special attention to the Book of Concord and the Creeds contained therein.

I suggest if you check the list, you'll find that those who say "amen" are those who tend to identify themselves as evangelical catholics.  As to taking the Reformation as the starting point, if you think that's not a common mindset, I'm quite surprised.  It is often QUITE common among those who are most adamant about being Lutheran.

Pastor Weedon, I agree. This list works for me.

George Erdner

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #113 on: August 10, 2011, 11:19:51 PM »
I, for one, am by no means certain that not all Lutherans are evangelical catholics.  FWIW.

Which is exactly my point. If some people think all Lutherans are Evangelical Catholics, and other people think that Evangelical Catholic is a subset or faction of Lutheran Christians, then the existence of those diverse points of view are what I was talking about in that there is no commonly accepted definition. And, if you contend that all Lutherans might be Evangelical Catholics, and all Evangelical Catholics "treasure the Daily Office" and "make use of the joys of Private Absolution", and the other things you listed, there are some Lutherans who do not do those things. So, how could you not be certain that not all Lutherans are Evangelical Catholics if there are many Lutherans who do not do some or all of the things on your list? The propers for the Daily Office aren't even included in Evangelical Lutheran Worship, the ELCA's new hymnal!
 
 
 
 
 
 

Weedon

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #114 on: August 11, 2011, 06:31:26 AM »
George,

I think I didn't say that well.  What I meant was that evangelical catholics are convinced that this is Lutheranism as it OUGHT TO BE and therefore we seek to encourage others to share this way of living out the faith with us - it is the way we find our life described in the Book of Concord, and thus we believe a vision and life that is the birthright of every Lutheran.  Evangelical catholics know well enough that not every Lutheran shares this vision, but we believe with all our heart that they should - and we'll try to demonstrate to them why we think that.

Erma and Lucan,

Thanks for the input. 
« Last Edit: August 11, 2011, 06:38:33 AM by Weedon »
William Weedon, Assistant Pastor
St. Paul Lutheran Church, Hamel IL
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Steven Tibbetts

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #115 on: August 11, 2011, 08:10:24 AM »
I believe suggesting that any responsible Lutheran takes the Lutheran Reformation as "the starting point" is really quite a red herring, my dear Venerable Weed. You see? You can be wrong!


The problem, Paul, is that there are a whole lot of irresponsible Lutherans -- and have been for generations.  That includes theologians, pastors,...

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PTMcCain

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #116 on: August 11, 2011, 08:11:48 AM »
This is most certainly true, Fr. Tibbetts.

Charles_Austin

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #117 on: August 11, 2011, 08:44:37 AM »
So what is the solution?
Take everything back to 1570? Or before all those nasty mergers started in the 1960s? Or to when the purified Saxons arrived mid-19th Century?
Or when the jam-up of Schmuckerism seemed to have been defeated?
Folks here will know that I favor church unity, feel that unity with Rome ought to get priority, lament the over-Protestantization of American Lutheranism, and see the value in considering ourselves "evangelical catholics," however varied the definition might be.
But... and it is a big but....

Much of what roams around as "evangelical catholicism" is a dreamy-eyed unrealistic longing for the liturgy, the order, the "certainty," the history, the ambiance and trappings and the "prestige" of Roman Catholicism.
We have the liturgy - though many won't admit it - so check that off the list. We have 1,530 years of Roman Catholic history, and 1,054 years of Eastern Orthodox history that we can claim as "ours," so give that item a partial check-off.
Some pine for bishops with authority (provided it is authority doing what they think it should do) and some are tickled with clerical titles or letters and periods after their name.
As for gaining the presumed status and "prestige" or Rome, we are not likely to get it.
For a while, some thought we should wrestle with Anglicanism for the title of "the bridge church" spanning Protestantism and Roman Catholicism.
And I fear that some are more concerned with repristinating those old times (the "good old days"?) that making the Gospel message clear to people today. They seem to live in earlier centuries, "good ones" maybe, but not today.
My semi-unchurched friends, or disaffected Roman Catholic friends "like" the Lutheran services I send them to because 1) it looks like the mass they know; and if the communal feeling is welcoming and open, they really like it. They have no problems with married clergy or women clergy and many have no problems with partnered gay people.
They hang loose on some liturgical matters and if a pastor celebrates with alb and stole or cassock, surplice and stole, they hardly notice. They like music they can sing and many - unfortunately - aren't big on Gregorian or plainsong.
Might be nice if there were a huge movement towards the things on Pastor Weedon's list. I don't see it, especially among the marginally-churched or unchurched.
I have said far upstream in other threads that a grass-roots ecumenism and "catholicism" embracing many in the Roman Catholic and a good number of us Protestants exists. It is being created by the people of faith themselves. And it results in some of the very things that leading "evangelical catholics" on this discussion board dislike.

P.S. And if it has anything at all to do with whether we wear a clerical collar or not, we are in deep deep trouble. (FWIW, in parish work, I generally do.)
« Last Edit: August 11, 2011, 09:14:54 AM by Charles_Austin »

Mike Bennett

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #118 on: August 11, 2011, 09:06:47 AM »
I would think that almost all of those who claim to be STS are also considering themselves EC's.
Rob Buechler

STS is joined by subscribing to a Rule and literally signing a membership book in the presence of the members gathered in General Chapter (along with guests, which is why I know this from first hand observation).  The list of members is published on the STS web site.  So what might you mean by "those who claim to be STS?"

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jpetty

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #119 on: August 11, 2011, 10:50:20 AM »
In the ELCA, I'm guessing that most self-identified "evangelical catholics" come out of the old LCA tradition.  At any rate, most the "ec's" I have known were "eastern."  The midwesterners tend to be more pietist and low church.

Is it possible to be "evangelical catholic" and "low church" at the same time?