Author Topic: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism  (Read 7276 times)

Jim_Krauser

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #90 on: August 08, 2011, 09:48:12 PM »
Likewise in Romania
 
The "Lutheran" church in Poland is known as the Church of the Augsburg Confession.  That may be more to the point.  grabau
Jim Krauser

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vicarbob

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #91 on: August 09, 2011, 10:12:25 PM »
Now we are back to a thread from what, 1-2 years ago. What shall we be called?
BTW, last week had a conversation with a homeowner across the street from the cong I serve. First time we have spoken, which surprised me as I thought I have had conversations with all the neighbors.....at least those not in the 5 very large apartment buildings. Anyway, the gentleman was born and raised in Poland and he wanted to know what type of church we were (He has lived on the block for 15+ years) I respond, Lutheran...he looks perplexed....I say, in Poland we are known as the Church of the Augsburg Confession...he smiles and nods...that's wonderful...that's how I was baptized in Poland!

And no George, EC's posting on this forum or even those who lurk and appear from time to time would not think of jumping on one another for fear of wrinkling our cassocks, getting strangled by our tippets or knocking the biretta's off our heads while yelling in Latin. Or worse..... ;)

Dave_Poedel

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #92 on: August 10, 2011, 01:27:07 AM »
Having just returned from Poland where I visited a magnificent church built by the Lutherans in 1706 and "appropriated" by the Roman Catholics and never returned, and then having the privilege of preaching in a building completed in 1744, I assure you there are great differences between Catholics and Those of the Church of the Augsburg Confession in Poland, one being that the Catholics got legislation passed that prevents the Lutherans from recovering their confiscated property, even today.

I have grown weary of trying to make "something" of Lutheranism in this day and age where we have lost our ability to make any difference in this nation where we are overshadowed by Roman Catholics who simply consider us one more bunch of Protestants and the Reformed/Arminian brand of Evangelicals who we in the LCMS have, until very recently, done our level best to emulate in style and as a result increasingly substance.  I think the recent election will have the effect of slowing, if not reversing that trend, but those congregations will not suddenly dust off their organ and altar.

in as much as there is interest in preserving Lutheranism in America, we are likely to become what Lutherans have become in Poland: "Old German Church".

When my successor arrives at my parish after my death, my chasubles will likely be donated to the STS, or it's successor, and my things a quaint reminder of what was but never became much.

Dave Benke

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #93 on: August 10, 2011, 08:08:37 AM »
I like the idea of donating chasubles, Padre D.  In many Roman Catholic rectories or public rooms/conference rooms the chasubles of the revered pastors/msgrs./bishops/cardinals of the past are hung on the walls, symbols of the pastoral office as anchored in the Divine Service and the Eucharist.

In the general Protestantized world of Lutheranism, I guess it would be a collection of the pastor's ties, or in the more contemporary mode, team shirts and sneakers. 

Dave Benke

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #94 on: August 10, 2011, 10:56:55 AM »
Having just returned from Poland where I visited a magnificent church built by the Lutherans in 1706 and "appropriated" by the Roman Catholics and never returned, and then having the privilege of preaching in a building completed in 1744, I assure you there are great differences between Catholics and Those of the Church of the Augsburg Confession in Poland, one being that the Catholics got legislation passed that prevents the Lutherans from recovering their confiscated property, even today.

I have grown weary of trying to make "something" of Lutheranism in this day and age where we have lost our ability to make any difference in this nation where we are overshadowed by Roman Catholics who simply consider us one more bunch of Protestants and the Reformed/Arminian brand of Evangelicals who we in the LCMS have, until very recently, done our level best to emulate in style and as a result increasingly substance.  I think the recent election will have the effect of slowing, if not reversing that trend, but those congregations will not suddenly dust off their organ and altar.

in as much as there is interest in preserving Lutheranism in America, we are likely to become what Lutherans have become in Poland: "Old German Church".

When my successor arrives at my parish after my death, my chasubles will likely be donated to the STS, or it's successor, and my things a quaint reminder of what was but never became much.

Fr. DAVE

Perhaps that will happen. More likely, you will "last" a few more years. Eventually, the Reformed/Arminian brand of Evangelicals in the LCMS will have run their course. As will various other powers. It is vital that you and all those in the STS, and all those evangelical catholic pastors and parishes maintain what you are doing. We may be the model for the future of American Lutheranism, presently approaching collapse. After we "hit bottom" there will something to turn toward.

That will be you.   :)

Peace, JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

PTMcCain

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #95 on: August 10, 2011, 11:08:10 AM »
Has the term "evangelical catholic" been adequately defined yet?

CSLewis2

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #96 on: August 10, 2011, 04:00:33 PM »
It would seem not. I would think that almost all of those who claim to be STS are also considering themselves EC's. However I confess that EC seems to mean whatever the person thinks it means, and too often what I am seeing with regards a definition would either make the person claiming to be EC either not "catholic" or not "evangelical Lutheran." For example, some EC insist upon a magisterial and do not support the teaching that the Scriptures are the inspired, inerrant, infallible Word of God. This actually means they put their trust in human traditions and ecumenical councils over the actual Word of God. That would place them outside the Lutheran Confessions.

There are those who believe in the inspired, inerrant Word of God but they want women's ordination. This puts them outside the "catholic" understanding of ordained ministry and so they would be outside the realm of "catholicism," and most certainly Roman Catholicism (the reunion with such seems to be the one common feature all EC's have).

So what is an EC? It would appear that EC's tend to be (but are not always) those who are straddling the fence between being a Reformation Church and the Roman Church.

Peace in the Lord Jesus Christ!
Rob Buechler

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #97 on: August 10, 2011, 04:07:45 PM »
Well, I think I said this before, but to me the primary qualification of a Lutheran EC is one who does not view his church other than as the Western Catholic Church, reformed according to the Gospel.  That, it seems to me, is the only way to give recognition that the Book of Concord did not drop out of heaven - that it is actually PART of a conversation about the Word of God that has been going on for a very long time in the Church.  Thus the numerous references to canon law and how to understand it, the constant appeal to how the Fathers read the Scriptures, and the steadfast determination not to be regarded as a "denomination."  I was reading in Gerhard's *The Church* the other day (what a gem!), and came across this sentiment with which I think any Lutheran EC would agree:

We - impeded by the thunderbolt of excommunication from the Roman Pontiff and driven out of the fellowship of the Roman church by the violence of persecutions - have departed from their communion, not so much as fleeing from them as chased away.  If the confession of the true doctrine and the legitimate use of the Sacraments had been left free for us, perhaps we would not have departed from the external fellowship of the Roman church.  (p. 139)
William Weedon, Assistant Pastor
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PTMcCain

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #98 on: August 10, 2011, 04:09:57 PM »
Forgive me, but when it comes to specific definition, it strikes me that nailing jello to a wall is easier then defining "Evangelical Catholic." I believe that fact points out the fundamental weakness in the phrase and its use.

Weedon

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #99 on: August 10, 2011, 04:22:04 PM »
No more so than the very use of the word "catholic."  I would still maintain that the mark of an evangelical catholic is precisely not taking the Lutheran Reformation as one's starting point, but as an evangelical corrective (and an absolutely necessary one, I might add) to the direction that the Western Catholic Church had gone, and of which one still regards one's self as a part. 

I say this, knowing full well that in Ukraine there are Eastern rite Lutherans who have their own unique history, but in the totality of Lutheranism, characterizing it as Western Catholic seems quite a fair thing. 

I might add that IF one starts with the evangelical catholic mindset then a whole series of difficulties that currently vex many simply disappear.  The Reformation was not about innovations; it was about purifying and correcting what had gone wrong with Scripture as the clear touchstone and without any desire to remove what was not contrary to Scripture, but even to receive them as "third article gifts" - the result of living in the Spirit's shaping of the mind of Christ within the community of believers. 
William Weedon, Assistant Pastor
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PTMcCain

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #100 on: August 10, 2011, 04:30:46 PM »
I believe suggesting that any responsible Lutheran takes the Lutheran Reformation as "the starting point" is really quite a red herring, my dear Venerable Weed. You see? You can be wrong!

:)

Weedon

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #101 on: August 10, 2011, 04:42:53 PM »
You just might be an evangelical catholic if...

...you believe that "our churches keep the Mass" means that.
...you treasure the Daily Office.
...you make use of the joys of Private Absolution.
...you believe that the Office of the Ministry is a divinely established institution, and though you recognize that the canonical ordination is only of human right, you still value it as a sign of the catholicity of the ministry.
...you find ecclesiastic ceremonies (vestments; ritual actions) to be reverent and fitting additions for the celebration of the Mass and the Office and other churchly functions even while you steadfastly confess that they are not divinely mandated or intrinsically necessary.
...you believe that the current generation is not automatically the best judge or jury for ecclesiastic practice, let alone confession of the faith - so you consider the wisdom of those who have gone before you in the faith in matters both of faith and practice, giving special attention to the Book of Concord and the Creeds contained therein.

I suggest if you check the list, you'll find that those who say "amen" are those who tend to identify themselves as evangelical catholics.  As to taking the Reformation as the starting point, if you think that's not a common mindset, I'm quite surprised.  It is often QUITE common among those who are most adamant about being Lutheran.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 04:50:52 PM by Weedon »
William Weedon, Assistant Pastor
St. Paul Lutheran Church, Hamel IL
Catechist on LPR Podcast: The Word of the Lord Endures Forever
A Daily, Verse-by-Verse Bible Study with the Church, Past and Present
www.thewordendures.org

+Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum

FrPeters

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #102 on: August 10, 2011, 04:55:22 PM »
lex orandi lex credendi is often joyfully seen in those who are most serious about the Divine Service are also most serious about no dissent in any article of faith from the church catholic... not always, to be sure, but among us Lutherans, it seems to be true more often than not...
Fr Larry Peters
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George Erdner

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #103 on: August 10, 2011, 06:28:22 PM »
Has the term "evangelical catholic" been adequately defined yet?

No. More specifically, it has been defined many diverse ways, which is that same as no definition at all.
 
 

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #104 on: August 10, 2011, 07:03:19 PM »
Well, take the definition together with the signposts I suggested, George, and see if you can locate anyone who goes by Evangelical Catholic in the Lutheran camp who disagrees.  I'd be quite surprised if you did. 
William Weedon, Assistant Pastor
St. Paul Lutheran Church, Hamel IL
Catechist on LPR Podcast: The Word of the Lord Endures Forever
A Daily, Verse-by-Verse Bible Study with the Church, Past and Present
www.thewordendures.org

+Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum