Author Topic: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism  (Read 7541 times)

David Garner

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2011, 09:20:04 PM »
Personally the Large Cathechism is far easier to use as an introduction.  Those I have had read it are far more appreciative of it than Veith, which is far easier to dismiss as a subjective journey.

We didn't have the problem of "either/or."  We read Veith while we went through catechesis.  Solid dose of both.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Rev. Kevin Scheuller

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2011, 09:59:14 PM »
What would probably be good as a primer for dealing with Evangelicals:

http://www.cph.org/p-18153-the-lutheran-difference.aspx

Edited by ALPB forum blog contributer, Rev. Edward A. Engelbrecht, STM

Check out the video on the page, he and Rev. McCain are in it.

Kevin, I don't think that is what Lucan is seeking here.  Art
Although I haven't read the work, I'd be surprised if it did not contain the quote from Luther referring to himself as a worm and saying that it would be far better for the church of his reformation to be called the evangelical catholic church than to be called "Lutheran."  That's why I recommended it - of course, in so doing I am assuming that that quote of Luther's in included, so it's probably best not to assume. 

I would recommend anything by Frank Senn on the matter, though. 

lthayer

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2011, 10:11:41 PM »
Certainly the man who towers in Evangelical Catholicism is A. C. Piepkorn - and I do believe that the volume *The Church* offers a very great apologia, most especially in his article on the Symbols and the Sacred Ministry - with its two outstanding appendices.  Much of the critique of Lutheranism offered from the Roman and Orthodox camps centers around the illegitimacy of our ministry in their opinion.  Piepkorn is amazing in blowing that critique out of the water.

Pr. Weedon, I could not agree with you more here.  Florida Chapter STS just concluded their retreat yesterday with Pr. Philip Secker, STS, as teaching theologian.  I read The Church in preparation for the retreat.  What a priceless gift to the Church!
Leslie

Mike Bennett

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2011, 10:12:44 PM »
The Catholicity of the Reformation ed Braaten & Jenson.
Contributors:
Braaten
Jenson
Frank Senn
James Crumley
Gunther Gussman
Robert Wilken
David Yeago

Available at, among other places, Amazon.com, where you can view, among other things, the table of contents.

Mike Bennett
“What peace can there be, so long as the many whoredoms and sorceries of your mother Jezebel continue?”  2 Kings 9:22

Edward Engelbrecht

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2011, 06:57:48 AM »
I've always been content with the title, "Lutheran." The title "evangelical catholic" seems doubly complicated since one has to explain two terms rather than one. Perhaps the first thing needed in an apology for evangelical catholic is an explanation of the titling and why the term Lutheran is insufficient.

Charles_Austin

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2011, 08:36:39 AM »
I worry that "evangelical catholics," however one chooses to define them, remain somewhat embarrassed to be "Lutheran," for while they love to cite the key documents and doctrines and practices of Lutheranism, it is often an idealized version which does not reflect the larger reality of what Lutheranism is today.
     For decades I have endorsed what many "evangelical catholics" speak of so often, such as a "higher" view of the sacraments and the ministry, which includes weekly celebrations of the eucharist in a more or less "traditional" way, rapprochement with Roman Catholicism, honesty about the "down side" of the 16th Century Reformation, better understanding of the Church prior to the Great Schism of 1054, and a wariness about the "more Protestant" aspects of piety and church life and the effects of the more "radical Reformation" which came after our dear Martin passed.
     But here we are, "Lutherans" who cannot completely separate ourselves from the "Protestant" aspect of our heritage and church life ("Protestant" here not equaling "evangelical"), "Lutherans" with fellow "Lutherans" around the world who don't even know what "evangelical catholic" might mean or feel like, and "Lutherans" considered "Protestant" by most of society, despite the persistent and Herculean efforts of Lutheran Forum and some of our colleagues.
     So in the grander scheme of things, "Lutheran" is o.k. with me.

pearson

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2011, 08:47:00 AM »

I've always been content with the title, "Lutheran."


And then. . .


So in the grander scheme of things, "Lutheran" is o.k. with me.


Pr. Engelbrecht, is your definition of "Lutheran" the same as Pr. Austin's definition of "Lutheran"?

Tom Pearson

Edward Engelbrecht

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2011, 09:12:31 AM »
Tom, they are likely close or significantly overlapping, since Charles as an ELCA Lutheran and I as an LCMS Lutheran would both refer to the Lutheran Confessions as the most objective means for defining "Lutheran." That is also the common features of Lutheran churches and synods around the world, whether in LWF or ILC, since they include the Lutheran Confessions in their self-designation. After that Charles and I can both feel embarrassed about ideas held or argued by the other. : )

I'll let Charles weigh in on whether I've appropriately described the matter.

David Garner

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #23 on: June 10, 2011, 09:43:44 AM »
I worry that "evangelical catholics," however one chooses to define them, remain somewhat embarrassed to be "Lutheran," for while they love to cite the key documents and doctrines and practices of Lutheranism, it is often an idealized version which does not reflect the larger reality of what Lutheranism is today.

Not to ignore the rest of your post, which I thought was very interesting and well stated, but regards the above, I would note that it is not your typical "Evangelical Catholic" whose Church sign fails to include the word "Lutheran."
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Weedon

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2011, 09:52:52 AM »
I confess that I rather love the term Lutheran too.  But it is striking - I think I'm right on this - that Lutheran doesn't receive hardly any play in the Christian Book of Concord.  The Churches of the Augsburg Confession, do, however.  And so I'd be happy to be known as a catholic of the Augsburg Confession. 

If I may put it so, one can be known for identifying solely with the Reformation critique; or one can be known for recognizing that the critique was of a broader and deeper tradition.  The one pulls the critique out as though it were the whole of what "Lutheran" identifies; the other recognizes "Lutheran" as embracing not only what had gone wrong and needed addressing, but also what had never gone wrong and continued on.  To think that sola fide, sola scriptura, sola gratia is the sum total of Lutheranism, or even justification is the sum total of Lutheranism, is to adopt a form of Lutheranism that its founders wouldn't recognize.  I.e., Gospel reductionism ain't what I mean by Lutheran!

MaddogLutheran

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #25 on: June 10, 2011, 09:54:34 AM »
Please don't take this as mocking or a put down...

Have you read Frank Senn's "Lutheran Identity:  A Classical Understanding"?

http://www.amazon.com/Lutheran-Identity-Classical-Understanding-Voices/dp/0806680105/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1307659624&sr=1-3

I wouldn't necessarily call it an apologetic work but I think it fits your criteria.

I would expect that every member of the Society of the Holy Trinity has read and thoroughly digested everything published by its Senior.   :o ::)  (Not a pastor, but I'm working on it myself, slowly.)

But seriously, thread has spawned interesting replies, but the one question it generates from me, to the originator Pr. Seamon, is this:

To whom are you looking for such an Apology to be targeted?  Within Lutheran circles, or the broader Church?  Seems to me that there might be some difference in content (or maybe not so much), depending on whether it is directed at Low Church/Pietism, versus a Roman/Orthodox audience, for example.  The things that would be a point of emphasis/agreement on one side might need to be defended to the other, and vice versa.  Being in the middle of the road sometimes makes you road kill.

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Charles_Austin

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #26 on: June 10, 2011, 10:10:25 AM »
Editor Engelbrecht has it right.
We have the commonality as "Lutherans" that he cites and we most likely consider each other valid "Lutherans," at least I consider him and his church body validly "Lutheran."
But between the ELCA and the LCMS is a gulf which means that we are not in close fellowship, at least insofar as our official declarations and operating policies define that. That may change for the better in the years to come.
Meanwhile "evangelical catholics" constitute a certain segment of Lutheranism that is probably present in both the ELCA and the LCMS.

George Erdner

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #27 on: June 10, 2011, 10:18:54 AM »
I've always been content with the title, "Lutheran." The title "evangelical catholic" seems doubly complicated since one has to explain two terms rather than one. Perhaps the first thing needed in an apology for evangelical catholic is an explanation of the titling and why the term Lutheran is insufficient.

Perhaps re-addressing the issue of What is a Lutheran?, with the poll question, "What makes a Christian a "Lutheran" Christian?" is appropriate.

Jay

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2011, 10:42:04 AM »
And so I'd be happy to be known as a catholic of the Augsburg Confession. 


I prefer that term as well. Couldn't we even use a big "C" under those circumstances?

racin_jason

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2011, 11:05:08 AM »
When I wear a chausible for Pentecost this Sunday, does this make me an evengelical catholic?

Why or why not?

Just checking, to be on the safe side.
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