Author Topic: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism  (Read 7542 times)

Edward Engelbrecht

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #45 on: June 10, 2011, 06:50:49 PM »
I have never met a layman in the LCMS who described himself as an evangelical catholic. It seems to be a clergy interest, like the St. James Society of years gone by.

vicarbob

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #46 on: June 10, 2011, 07:07:16 PM »
Don't know how to respond to the preceding post, except to say I know any number of the laity whose understanding and idendity is just that and if it were a matter concerning/embraced by only the clergy then few pastors have taught Lutheran theology, practice or history to their cure. A bit extreme, perhaps.
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Bob

peter_speckhard

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #47 on: June 10, 2011, 07:09:21 PM »
It seems to me a lot of leading EC's are laymen. Isn't Bob Benne? Jim Nuechterlein?

racin_jason

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #48 on: June 10, 2011, 08:17:32 PM »
When I wear a chausible for Pentecost this Sunday, does this make me an evengelical catholic?

Why or why not?

Just checking, to be on the safe side.

The wearing of a chausible is cancelled out the the use of Power Point screens to display the liturgy.

Too funny....and true.
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Edward Engelbrecht

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #49 on: June 10, 2011, 08:57:17 PM »
It seems to me a lot of leading EC's are laymen. Isn't Bob Benne? Jim Nuechterlein?

Perhaps it is an upper east and Valpo thing? I've lived in Upstate NY, MI, IN, IL, and MO and honestly have never heard a layman self described as ev/cath.

Keith Falk

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #50 on: June 10, 2011, 11:13:00 PM »
While not an apology for evangelical catholicism, Rick Cimino in his book Lutherans Today: American Lutheran Identity in the 21st Century provides some good descriptions.
Rev. Keith Falk, STS

grabau

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #51 on: June 11, 2011, 10:31:19 AM »
The "Lutheran" church in Poland is known as the Church of the Augsburg Confession.  That may be more to the point.  grabau

Charles_Austin

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #52 on: June 11, 2011, 11:29:14 AM »
From a communications perspective, and with some concern for the "public face" of our church bodies and as one who has tried to interpret Lutheranism to the broader world, I think we have problems enough with getting folks to understand "Lutheran," and that nothing will be gained by starting to throw "Church of the Augsburg Confession" or some such permutation of "Augsburg" into the mix.
And I do not think that our Polish friends are likely to throw "catholic" or any Polish, German or Slavic parallel of that word into the name for their church body.

pearson

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #53 on: June 11, 2011, 12:28:55 PM »

I'm having a little difficulty understand some of the telegraphic posts. Is everyone working under the assumption that "Evangelical Catholic" and "Lutheran" are two different terms for the same thing? Or is "Evangelical Catholic" a subset of "Lutheran", ie., "All Evangelical Catholics are Lutherans, but not all Lutherans are Evangelical Catholics"? Or are the "Evangelical Catholics" and the "Lutherans" two intersecting sets. Or are Evangelical Catholics Lutherans who seek to return to 16th century Lutheranism in terms of teaching and practice, and purge all of the innovations of the Pietistic era?


Surely there are Evangelical Catholics who are not Lutheran.  My sense is that one (among several) of the themes emphasized by ECs is a quest for Christian orthodoxy -- for defining "orthodoxy" and for seeking to discover how to proclaim and practice orthodoxy in the contemporary world.  In this sense, one valuable resource is Chesterton's little book titled, well, Orthodoxy.

Tom Pearson

grabau

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #54 on: June 11, 2011, 01:01:20 PM »
Well yes, Pr. Austin.  Lutherans in Canada commissioned a study to determine the "image" of Lutherans in Canada.  The conclusion: they had none. grabau

George Erdner

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #55 on: June 11, 2011, 01:17:34 PM »

I'm having a little difficulty understand some of the telegraphic posts. Is everyone working under the assumption that "Evangelical Catholic" and "Lutheran" are two different terms for the same thing? Or is "Evangelical Catholic" a subset of "Lutheran", ie., "All Evangelical Catholics are Lutherans, but not all Lutherans are Evangelical Catholics"? Or are the "Evangelical Catholics" and the "Lutherans" two intersecting sets. Or are Evangelical Catholics Lutherans who seek to return to 16th century Lutheranism in terms of teaching and practice, and purge all of the innovations of the Pietistic era?


Surely there are Evangelical Catholics who are not Lutheran.  My sense is that one (among several) of the themes emphasized by ECs is a quest for Christian orthodoxy -- for defining "orthodoxy" and for seeking to discover how to proclaim and practice orthodoxy in the contemporary world.  In this sense, one valuable resource is Chesterton's little book titled, well, Orthodoxy.

Tom Pearson

I wish I had a better understanding of which faction of the people who call themselves "Evangelical Christians" that you are referring are the ones you are referring to. I've encountered many self-styled "EC's" who emphasize that theme. I've encountered many others who have that theme rather far down their list of defining characteristics. I don't know precise numbers, but I know more than a few self-styled "EC's" whose primary defining characteristic is little more than a great affection for high church pomp and pageantry. I wouldn't presume to use those examples as the only definition for "EC", but it is a reality that exists.


Steven Tibbetts

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #56 on: June 11, 2011, 03:56:59 PM »
Surely there are Evangelical Catholics who are not Lutheran. 


Indeed.  When the Episcopal Church still had a lot of "traditionalists" in it, one of the banners they gathered around was "Evangelical and Catholic" (which were included in the name of one of the societies that became the Episcopal Synod of America, of which "Anglo-Catholics" were only one perspective).  The term itself originated with the mid-19th Century Reformed "Mercersburg theoloigans" led by Nevin and Schaff, under whose guidance we have so much of the Ancient Church Fathers available in English.

Long before I'd ever heard of Neuhaus, Piepkorn, and an "Evangelical Catholic" movement/party in the Lutheran churches, my pastor in a conversation described Lutherans as "Evangelical Catholics," and I understood where he was going.  The "protestant" church that emerged from the Reformation was properly called (as Luther often insisted, and as it is called today in German) the Evangelical Church, which confessed the one holy catholic and apostolic Church.  The protest was not to Rome's Catholicism, but that it had become "Roman" and was rejecting much of what was truly Catholic, namely the Gospel ("evangel").  He wasn't an Evangelical Catholic in exactly the same sense that I became, but he did introduce me to the notion that the Augsburg Confession was not a declaration of independence, but an affirmation of what was truly Catholic. 

And it may not help, but it is useful to observe that words almost always have more than one specific definition, and you will see "Evangelical Catholic" used in that very way.

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Jay

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #57 on: June 11, 2011, 06:35:45 PM »
Surely there are Evangelical Catholics who are not Lutheran. 


Indeed.  When the Episcopal Church still had a lot of "traditionalists" in it, one of the banners they gathered around was "Evangelical and Catholic" (which were included in the name of one of the societies that became the Episcopal Synod of America, of which "Anglo-Catholics" were only one perspective). 

Thanks to an essay by Abp. Rowan Williams entitled "The  Lutheran  Catholic"  I have discovered the theology of former Archbishop of Canterbury Michael Ramsey, who  was very much an "Evangelical Catholic." Most of the essay  can be  read here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=MAae4YulNFoC&pg=PA211&lpg=PA211&dq=rowan+williams+michael+ramsey+lutheran+catholic&source=bl&ots=OrgqXGcyGS&sig=6EwMPm_mCKoRGFs4ckt7cfZqyRw&hl=en&ei=9uzzTcTwH4m5tgeW1cSeBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=rowan%20williams%20michael%20ramsey%20lutheran%20catholic&f=false

lucan

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #58 on: June 11, 2011, 10:30:54 PM »
Good recommendations on resources.  I actually own a lot of them already.  Personally, what I'd like to see is the content of Frank Senn's book, but with a bit of a polemical edge both towards Amero-evangelicalism and Protestant Liberalism. 

As to whether Evangelical Catholic is purely a Lutheran subset, I tend to agree with Pr. Tibbetts' assertion that Evangelical Catholicism should be view more as a wider movement within the Church, even though Luther and the Confessions probably articulate it better than most.

Peace and all good,

Pater Luke+


vicarbob

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #59 on: June 12, 2011, 08:04:01 PM »
Look at the Order of St Luke in the UMC.....Evangelical Catholic, so yes, the term is not limited to Lutherans, but it is our DNA, as it were.
pax
Bob