Author Topic: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism  (Read 7536 times)

Charles_Austin

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #30 on: June 10, 2011, 11:08:52 AM »
If the term has anything to do with vestiture, I think we go astray.

Weedon

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2011, 11:21:04 AM »
Racin,  it depends on what the chasuble looks like...  ;)

Edward Engelbrecht

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2011, 11:25:49 AM »
I've always been content with the title, "Lutheran." The title "evangelical catholic" seems doubly complicated since one has to explain two terms rather than one. Perhaps the first thing needed in an apology for evangelical catholic is an explanation of the titling and why the term Lutheran is insufficient.

Perhaps re-addressing the issue of What is a Lutheran?, with the poll question, "What makes a Christian a "Lutheran" Christian?" is appropriate.

Perhaps the author of the thread will provide this.

Edward Engelbrecht

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2011, 12:18:18 PM »
And so I'd be happy to be known as a catholic of the Augsburg Confession. 


I prefer that term as well. Couldn't we even use a big "C" under those circumstances?

For the LCMS, I would prefer a name that represents the fuller development of our confessional heritage by including "Concordia." That would be most appropriate, I think.

racin_jason

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2011, 12:24:25 PM »
Racin,  it depends on what the chasuble looks like...  ;)

Here it is. But in red, of course.

http://www.almy.com/Product/56331/category/ChasublesAndStoles/parent/ChurchVestments
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George Erdner

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2011, 12:26:54 PM »
When I wear a chausible for Pentecost this Sunday, does this make me an evengelical catholic?

Why or why not?

Just checking, to be on the safe side.

The wearing of a chausible is cancelled out the the use of Power Point screens to display the liturgy.

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2011, 01:18:57 PM »

(1) Are there any accessible, somewhat concise and convincing writings that may serve as an "Apology for Evangelical Catholicism"?  


Luke, given the way you ask the question, I too would respond with Frank Senn's little "Lutheran Voices" book published by Augsburg Fortress, Lutheran Identity: A Classical Understanding.  That's pretty much why he wrote it.

Arthur Carl Piepkorn's essays, articles, and papers that are being collected (2 volumes published so far, Fr. Weedon has referenced The Church) are and will be indespensible, but you might think of them related to Dr. Senn's book as the Large Catechism to the Small Catechism.  While you gain considerable richness, you lose some accessibility and, because they were often written for very particular contexts, some references will be, uh, somewhat opaque for most readers.

Pax, Steven+
« Last Edit: June 10, 2011, 01:20:55 PM by Tibbetts+ »
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grabau

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #37 on: June 10, 2011, 01:49:38 PM »
Do Lutherans in general "own" the word catholic?  grabau

George Erdner

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #38 on: June 10, 2011, 01:51:16 PM »
I'm having a little difficulty understand some of the telegraphic posts. Is everyone working under the assumption that "Evangelical Catholic" and "Lutheran" are two different terms for the same thing? Or is "Evangelical Catholic" a subset of "Lutheran", ie., "All Evangelical Catholics are Lutherans, but not all Lutherans are Evangelical Catholics"? Or are the "Evangelical Catholics" and the "Lutherans" two intersecting sets. Or are Evangelical Catholics Lutherans who seek to return to 16th century Lutheranism in terms of teaching and practice, and purge all of the innovations of the Pietistic era?

MaddogLutheran

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #39 on: June 10, 2011, 02:15:43 PM »
My response was somewhat motivated by George's previous just above...
When I wear a chausible for Pentecost this Sunday, does this make me an evengelical catholic?

Why or why not?

Just checking, to be on the safe side.
Not sure how much tongue-in-cheek this was (I suspect pretty much), but your underlying point (unintended or not), is why I asked my question about to whom the Apology is directed.  Because much like the recent discussion in another thread where individual confession & absolution was regarded as too "Roman", admittedly by persons apparently not well-read on the Lutheran Confessions, there is a section of Lutherans who would reject such things as un-Lutheran.  I agree with Pastor Austin that vestiture really is a diversion from topic, except that for some it isn't.  How does one address such people?  And to make this pan-Lutheran, I think they exist in both the ELCA and LCMS.

And of course authority and bishops are better defined, controversial flashpoint, but I'm not sure even how to characterize this, as I think often the "other side" mischaracterizes the Evangelical Catholic position on those issues.  OTOH, and being fair, I don't know that I could simply describe what the Evangelical Catholic position is, other than to say that such organization is permissible for good order, but not essential.  Delving into such specifics, one can quickly get lost in the weeds.  I appreciate those previous who have offered Dr. Piepkorn's writings as Large Catechism to respond to such questions.

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Charles_Austin

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #40 on: June 10, 2011, 02:43:55 PM »
Remember that "Anglo-Catholic" has been a subset of Anglicanism for many decades.

David Garner

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #41 on: June 10, 2011, 03:13:39 PM »
I'm having a little difficulty understand some of the telegraphic posts. Is everyone working under the assumption that "Evangelical Catholic" and "Lutheran" are two different terms for the same thing? Or is "Evangelical Catholic" a subset of "Lutheran", ie., "All Evangelical Catholics are Lutherans, but not all Lutherans are Evangelical Catholics"? Or are the "Evangelical Catholics" and the "Lutherans" two intersecting sets. Or are Evangelical Catholics Lutherans who seek to return to 16th century Lutheranism in terms of teaching and practice, and purge all of the innovations of the Pietistic era?

As one who self-identified as an "evangelical catholic" when I was Lutheran, my response would simply be that the Lutheran Confessions describe a Church that embraces evangelical catholicism.

That refrains from taking away someone's own self-understanding of themselves as Lutheran while succinctly stating the point that if you take the Confessions seriously and believe what they say, there is no real way to understand yourself as being anything other than both evangelical and catholic. 
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

George Erdner

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #42 on: June 10, 2011, 04:42:06 PM »
I'm having a little difficulty understand some of the telegraphic posts. Is everyone working under the assumption that "Evangelical Catholic" and "Lutheran" are two different terms for the same thing? Or is "Evangelical Catholic" a subset of "Lutheran", ie., "All Evangelical Catholics are Lutherans, but not all Lutherans are Evangelical Catholics"? Or are the "Evangelical Catholics" and the "Lutherans" two intersecting sets. Or are Evangelical Catholics Lutherans who seek to return to 16th century Lutheranism in terms of teaching and practice, and purge all of the innovations of the Pietistic era?

As one who self-identified as an "evangelical catholic" when I was Lutheran, my response would simply be that the Lutheran Confessions describe a Church that embraces evangelical catholicism.

That refrains from taking away someone's own self-understanding of themselves as Lutheran while succinctly stating the point that if you take the Confessions seriously and believe what they say, there is no real way to understand yourself as being anything other than both evangelical and catholic. 

But is "Evangelical Catholicism", capitalized as a proper name of a specific school of thought and the concept of being both an evangelical and a catholic the same thing? I'd list another example of how the proper name of a self-identifying group isn't necessarily literally true, but then we'd get bogged down in discussing the example. But if someone is both an evangelical and a catholic automatically an "Evangelical Catholic", as that term is commonly used and understood today?

David Garner

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #43 on: June 10, 2011, 04:59:55 PM »
But is "Evangelical Catholicism", capitalized as a proper name of a specific school of thought and the concept of being both an evangelical and a catholic the same thing? I'd list another example of how the proper name of a self-identifying group isn't necessarily literally true, but then we'd get bogged down in discussing the example. But if someone is both an evangelical and a catholic automatically an "Evangelical Catholic", as that term is commonly used and understood today?

Not sure I can re-tie that particular knot.  If we disentangle it that far, I'm an Evangelical Catholic still, since I self identify as a member of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and I also believe we are Gospel-centered.  But certainly that's not what is meant by Lutherans who use that term.

I think an EC would expect use of the historic Western Liturgy, believe the Book of Concord is an exact exposition of the Scriptures in a quia sense, and would retain the practices the Book of Concord references as specifically Lutheran without regard to whether they seem "Roman Catholic" in outward appearance.  This would include (but is not limited to) a high reverence for the Theotokos (and probably a belief in the semper virgo and clauso utero), weekly communion, frequent use of private confession and absolution, use of the sign of the cross, etc.  It seems to me EC's tend to self-identify in opposition to more pietistic or low church protestant strains of Lutheranism rather than in a vacuum.  That makes them appear to be reactionary, but I think most honestly are trying to maintain the Church described in the Confessions rather than just trying to ape after Rome in opposition to protestant stylings.  I know that was the case with us.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

George Erdner

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Re: An appeal for an Apology for Evangelical Catholicism
« Reply #44 on: June 10, 2011, 05:06:31 PM »
But is "Evangelical Catholicism", capitalized as a proper name of a specific school of thought and the concept of being both an evangelical and a catholic the same thing? I'd list another example of how the proper name of a self-identifying group isn't necessarily literally true, but then we'd get bogged down in discussing the example. But if someone is both an evangelical and a catholic automatically an "Evangelical Catholic", as that term is commonly used and understood today?

Not sure I can re-tie that particular knot.  If we disentangle it that far, I'm an Evangelical Catholic still, since I self identify as a member of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and I also believe we are Gospel-centered.  But certainly that's not what is meant by Lutherans who use that term.

I think an EC would expect use of the historic Western Liturgy, believe the Book of Concord is an exact exposition of the Scriptures in a quia sense, and would retain the practices the Book of Concord references as specifically Lutheran without regard to whether they seem "Roman Catholic" in outward appearance.  This would include (but is not limited to) a high reverence for the Theotokos (and probably a belief in the semper virgo and clauso utero), weekly communion, frequent use of private confession and absolution, use of the sign of the cross, etc.  It seems to me EC's tend to self-identify in opposition to more pietistic or low church protestant strains of Lutheranism rather than in a vacuum.  That makes them appear to be reactionary, but I think most honestly are trying to maintain the Church described in the Confessions rather than just trying to ape after Rome in opposition to protestant stylings.  I know that was the case with us.

That strikes me as a clear and concise definition of Evangelical Catholic, if one accepts that Evangelical Catholic is a subset of the larger Lutheran Faith Tradition. Personally, I tend to agree with it, though my personal opinion has no weight in this discussion. I'd be interested in seeing how many people also agree with that take on what an Evangelical Catholic is, and how that belief manifests itself in terms of action.