SEMN Resolution Concerning Those Who Lead Congregations Out of ELCA

[John Theiss]

In 1985, when I left the LC--MS ministry you needed to be vested for 10 years to receive a full pension.  I had  paid in for almost 6 years (ca. September 1979 - June 1985) and was offered a lump sum payment of about $295.00 or a monthly pension of about $4.90 upon retirement at age 65.  Guess which I took  .

However, in decades past, that was the price an LCMS pastor paid when leaving it for another denomination. That's what a colleague said about his departure from LCMS, at that time, it meant giving up his pension. (The LCMS pension has changed it's policy since then.)

That would have been a long, long time ago. By 1973 (New Orleans convention after which many left) the policy was to allow members to keep their pensions even when leaving the LCMS. They did have to be vested (five years in the plan). They could not continue contributing, but what had been contributed was not taken away.

Today many ELCA retired pastors are also receiving their LCMS pension along with that from the ELCA.   

Peace, JOHN

[Steven Tibbetts]

If they are two separately incorporated bodies, why would the ELCA Church Council need to "endorse" the action taken by the ELCA BOP Trustees?  I don't understand that one.

It's sort of like the Los Angeles Dodgers is actually 29 different corporations, all owned by the same persons.  Separate incorporation is done for liability considerations, tax advantages, and other legal purposes.  (And, yes, sometimes for dodgy purposes.)

In the case of the BOP, it is established by the ELCA, for the benefit of ELCA and ELCA-related institutions (like congregations), and that relationship is defined in the ELCA Constitution, much like Augsburg Fortress, the Women of the ELCA, the ELCA Foundation, etc.  ELCA elects the BOP trustees, I believe at the CWA. 

Pension plans are *always* (or at least should should be) separately incorporated; otherwise the assets of the medical/health plans can be used to offset the liabilities (or, even worse, the day-to-day expenses) of the parent company, plans income is subject to income taxes, etc.

Pax, Steven+

[Steven Tibbetts]

Ah, the messiness of this all.  Something else reminded me, so I went to my Synod's web site to see if it was still the case.  And there he is, on the Synod's current "Pulpit Supply List": the presiding Bishop of a Lutheran church with which (whom?) the ELCA has no agreements.

 

spt+

[Charles_Austin]

Steven writes:
Ah, the messiness of this all.  Something else reminded me, so I went to my Synod's web site to see if it was still the case.  And there he is, on the Synod's current "Pulpit Supply List": the presiding Bishop of a Lutheran church with which (whom?) the ELCA has no agreements.
I comment:
And who is this?

[George Erdner]

Steven writes:
Ah, the messiness of this all.  Something else reminded me, so I went to my Synod's web site to see if it was still the case.  And there he is, on the Synod's current "Pulpit Supply List": the presiding Bishop of a Lutheran church with which (whom?) the ELCA has no agreements.
I comment:
And who is this?

Look it up yourself.

[Brian Stoffregen]

Steven writes:
Ah, the messiness of this all.  Something else reminded me, so I went to my Synod's web site to see if it was still the case.  And there he is, on the Synod's current "Pulpit Supply List": the presiding Bishop of a Lutheran church with which (whom?) the ELCA has no agreements.
I comment:
And who is this?

Look it up yourself.

I did, but there was nothing on the pulpit supply list that said "Bishop". However, there was a "Rev. Dr." that required authorization from the bishop to administer the sacrament. Sure enough. He was the one. A Google search gave me this information.

International Lutheran Fellowship
Bishop, The Most Rev Dr. Robert  Hotes       
The International Lutheran Fellowship
Office of the Archbishop
1124 South Fifth Street,
Springfield, IL 62704

He is on the pulpit supply list for the Central/Southern Illinois Synod.

(I have used a retired LCMS clergy for pulpit supply -- and my colleague in town has used him quite often. He's one of the few retired clergy who is here most of the summer and healthy. We are not in any agreements with the LCMS.)

[Charles_Austin]

I do not think we in the ELCA need particular "agreements" to be in fellowship with other Lutheran churches or to have their clergy preach in our congregations. On the other hand, I personally would want to know something about the background and credentials of anyone claiming to be a Lutheran bishop or archbishop before I invited them to preach. I don't think our now gone-from-here correspondent Gladfelter would hear from me very often. Hotes raises my suspicions as well.
There are plenty of pastors in the ELCA, LCMS and well-known bodies to use as supply.

[Scott6]

I do not think we in the ELCA need particular "agreements" to be in fellowship with other Lutheran churches or to have their clergy preach in our congregations.

That's interesting.  So what meaning does being in "altar and pulpit" fellowship have, then?  Is it OK for them to preach as long as they don't preside or something?

[Revbert]

I do not think we in the ELCA need particular "agreements" to be in fellowship with other Lutheran churches or to have their clergy preach in our congregations. On the other hand, I personally would want to know something about the background and credentials of anyone claiming to be a Lutheran bishop or archbishop before I invited them to preach. I don't think our now gone-from-here correspondent Gladfelter would hear from me very often. Hotes raises my suspicions as well.
There are plenty of pastors in the ELCA, LCMS and well-known bodies to use as supply.

Well, Charles, in this particular case, here's what I can tell you...

Dr Hotes is a former Roman Catholic religious. He's married. He's been a Lutheran for many years (can't recall of the top of my head the number). He is dual rostered with the Lutheran Ministerium and Synod-USA (LMS-USA). He is confessionally solid (moreso than many ELCA bishops I know).

Just because you haven't done any homework on the smaller Lutheran bodies doesn't mean you have the right to discard us with the flip-of-the-hand "Bah!"  And, as far as Irl goes, we in the LC-I have a very dim view of his "cathedrals in a closet."

Do you have a particular reason to always use last names alone when you have "concerns" about folks whom you don't know? I find that rather rude and impolite.

[Charles_Austin]

Pastor Hebbeler writes:
Well, Charles, in this particular case, here's what I can tell you...
Dr Hotes is a former Roman Catholic religious. He's married. He's been a Lutheran for many years (can't recall of the top of my head the number). He is dual rostered with the Lutheran Ministerium and Synod-USA (LMS-USA). He is confessionally solid (moreso than many ELCA bishops I know).
I respond:
Thank you for that information. I might still want to know where he got his Lutheran theological education and under what authority he was ordained. In the case of our some-time correspondent Archbishop Gladfelter, I would have probably concluded that there were some major deficiencies in what he was taught and under whose authority he was ordained and how that ordination was obtained.
The fact that you or anyone else declares that someone is "confessionally solid" means nothing other than your (admittedly valued) opinion. What part of the larger church has examined, verified and tested his claim to have a call and under what ecclesial authority does he exercise that call and accept discipline. If an LCMS or ELCA pastor is available for supply in a church I am related to, I know how his or her progress to ordained ministry went. For some others, I don't know.

Pastor Hebbeler writes:
Just because you haven't done any homework on the smaller Lutheran bodies doesn't mean you have the right to discard us with the flip-of-the-hand "Bah!"  And, as far as Irl goes, we in the LC-I have a very dim view of his "cathedrals in a closet."
I comment:
I do not dismiss them with a flip of anything. I simply said that I might need a little more information. I think you and I agree on Irl the Archbishop.

Pastor Hebbeler writes:
Do you have a particular reason to always use last names alone when you have "concerns" about folks whom you don't know? I find that rather rude and impolite.
I comment:
I hope that I do not always do so. If I do, it is a slip of my usual practice. I posted recently while "multi-tasking" on some other things and I slipped. My apologies for not using the customary and polite honorifics.

[James_Gale]

I do not think we in the ELCA need particular "agreements" to be in fellowship with other Lutheran churches or to have their clergy preach in our congregations.

That's interesting.  So what meaning does being in "altar and pulpit" fellowship have, then?  Is it OK for them to preach as long as they don't preside or something?

Here's what the constitution says:

8.74. This church, in accord with constitutional provision 2.05., acknowledges
as one with it in faith and doctrine all churches that accept the
teaching of the Unaltered Augsburg Confession and understands that
altar and pulpit fellowship with congregations and other entities of
such churches may be locally practiced. Local practice of altar and
pulpit fellowship, in accord with churchwide constitutional provision
2.05., is subject to the approval of the Synod Council, upon endorsement
by the synodical bishop. Notice of such approval is to be given
to the presiding bishop as the chief ecumenical officer of the
Evangelical Lutheran Church in America.

[Scott6]

I do not think we in the ELCA need particular "agreements" to be in fellowship with other Lutheran churches or to have their clergy preach in our congregations.

That's interesting.  So what meaning does being in "altar and pulpit" fellowship have, then?  Is it OK for them to preach as long as they don't preside or something?

Here's what the constitution says:

8.74. This church, in accord with constitutional provision 2.05., acknowledges
as one with it in faith and doctrine all churches that accept the
teaching of the Unaltered Augsburg Confession and understands that
altar and pulpit fellowship with congregations and other entities of
such churches may be locally practiced. Local practice of altar and
pulpit fellowship, in accord with churchwide constitutional provision
2.05., is subject to the approval of the Synod Council, upon endorsement
by the synodical bishop. Notice of such approval is to be given
to the presiding bishop as the chief ecumenical officer of the
Evangelical Lutheran Church in America.

Ah, so it can be declared locally w/ the approval of the synodical council.  Interesting.

[Revbert]

Charles,

In this day and age, I would be more concerned about the Lutheran education of ELCA seminary graduates than any other group of Lutheran pastors.

YMMV, of course.

Art

[Steven Tibbetts]

Here's what the constitution says:

8.74. This church, in accord with constitutional provision 2.05., ...

2.05 reads, and has since the ELCA's formation:

This church accepts the Unaltered Augsburg Confession as a true witness to the Gospel, acknowledging as one with it in faith and doctrine all churches that likewise accept the teachings of the Unaltered Augsburg Confession.

This drew upon the LCA's constitutional provision,

This church accepts the Unaltered Augsburg Confession and Luther's Small Catechism as true witnesses to the Gospel, and acknowledges as one with it in faith and doctrine all churches that likewise accept the teachings of these symbols.

I recall some of the discussion when the LCA and ALC declared Altar and Pulpit Fellowship, for many in the LCA questioned the necessity of such an agreement given our acknowledgement above.  That's what is behind a comment I've posted several times here, that from our perspective, we are already in such fellowship with the other Lutheran churches, whether they recognize it or not.

8.47 was added at the 2001 CWA and the official recommendation of the ELCA Church Council to adopt it reads,

To adopt new constitutional provision 8.74. to affirm local implementation of the commitment to Lutheran altar and pulpit fellowship as expressed in this church's Confession of Faith and to provide for local implementation of such fellowship:

Those who seek to use 8.47 to restrict "local implementation of Lutheran altar and pulpit fellowship," as some ELCA officials are now doing, are using this provision to the opposite effect of its stated intent!

Christe eleison, Steven+

[Jim Lehmann]

Steven+

From our perspective, you can preach in the pulpit of the congregation I serve any time you would like.  Unfortunately, that is about as close to a formal invitation I can give you because I don't want to put you in a difficult situation.  External forces may come to bear.

Jim+