Are Advocates for Homosexuality ready to heed Tutu's Advice?

[Maryland Brian]

Chuck,

This is the make or break issue in the church.  The Anglican Communion will very likely split on this issue. Given the rhetoric, I can't imagine that it won't.  OTOH, the orthodox majority may find itself in a more advantageous position to "go home to Rome."  Time will tell on that one, but if it does tilt in that direction liberal (small L) US based protestant denominations will be viewed as heterodox sects by the rest of Christianity.  Probably not in my lifetime, but given the collapse of the Christian faith in Europe ...

As per "this church" meaning the ELCA, I'm already making plans to move beyond the ELCA.  Given the recent actions in New England and Atlanta, I do not fit in this church. Two years ago my current synod by nearly 60% voted against a memorial supporting traditional families. I no longer carry any emotional response from making that statement.  It is what it is.  And in the words from Anglican circles, it is my sense the ELCA has already walked apart from the historic, orthodox faith.  From my perspective, any future votes don't matter.  We're already there.

What will it mean for most of the ELCA?  Probably not very much.  We are an aging, declining denomination that, IMHO, has already traveled beyond the tipping point of transformation.  Too many of our congregations have missed their opportunities to adjust toward what would be required to reach a new generation. In another note I could share my interpretations of the "New" worship materials and their ability to actually reach a sizable number of a younger generation, but that's a story for another time.  As per your question, now it's just a matter of turning out the lights one-by-one as the small congregations fade away. The large ones are almost universally orthodox in stance, much like in TEC, and my experience is that many are doing their thing independent of the local synod already. The mid-sized ones are struggling in their own ways.

So ... what does that actually mean for my congregation?  For a local congregation, as long as we are well managed, not requiring the services of the local bishop's office, and send in our monthly franchise fee, we are pretty much left alone.  Nothing drastic nor dramatic must happen any time soon.  The real hard work is still in the local congregation, reaching the Lost and making disciples.

BTW, you asked and so here's my answer.  Not looking to argue the point.  Not interested in debating why I think the way I do.  It's just where I've traveled in the last four years.

Maryland Brian

[LutherMan]

However, I really have no concern about this issue anymore, because its really is not up to me, or anyone who puts their faith in Jesus Christ, and his teachings.

Peace!

Don

Navyman

Don W,
If you "really have no concern about this issue anymore, because its really is not up to me" then why the lengthy post, showing obvious concern?

LM

[Marshall_Hahn]

Charles quoted Desmond Tutu as urging people to not argue about homosexuality because there's a lot more going on in the world than that one topic.

The people in my parish are following his advice.  When the last installment of JTF came out, I asked folks if they were interested in looking at it.  Nobody took me up on it.  They have studied this issue ad nauseum.  They have been through the 3 other versions of it.  They have heard and dissected the arguments.  They have not been convinced there is any warrant in overturning 3000 years of Scripture teaching on the subject, and they have better things to do.  They will vote on it when it comes up - at the conference, synod, and churchwide venues.  And if the ELCA approves the changes that revisionists want, they will vote with their wallets and with their feet.  But they are done arguing about it.  I, however, do not have the luxury.  Part of the vow I took at ordination, as I understand it, is to guard against error in the church.  So I will continue to argue about it - here, and in our conference, and in our synod, and elsewhere.  It is certainly far from the only thing I do, or the most important, but when it comes up, there it is.

Marshall Hahn

[BeornBjornson]

Maryland Brian,

What about long term for your congregation--post-retirement or post-death of the current pastor, i.e. you?  Given the revisionist domination of the ELCA seminaries, from where will your congregation draw its future pastors?  It's that question that has me (pastor of a small but growing rural two-point parish--oldest Norwegian Lutheran parish west of the Mississippi--in NE Iowa) involved in the battle for reform of the ELCA (or at least the gathering together of as large an orthodox group of ELCA congregations as we can muster for post-ELCA existence if the revisionists completely prevail).   
Ken Kimball
Pastor, Old East and Old West Paint Creek Lutheran Parish, Waterville  & Waukon, Iowa
member of Lutheran CORE Steering Committee

[Maryland Brian]

Ken.

Well ...  As a congregation we are already working with a network of Orthodox ECUSA congregations supporting an AIDS orphanage in south/central Tanzania.  I've been able to meet and work with a number of orthodox evangelical Anglicans.  I left a longer message about all this in the "Episcopalians in Freefall" area so won't cover that ground again.  Sufficient to say I have a personal desire to be part of a church that's larger than a splinter Lutheran presence in the US. OK - from my simple perspective the Lutheran experiment is all but dead in Europe.  It is going away here in North America.  It is growing in Africa.  So is the Anglican Communion.  I fully expect the moral and spiritual authority of the reforming churches to shift to the Global South.  That means ... for me anyway ...  the Concordat (if it follows into the new Anglican Province that will probably be started in North America) opens the door to seek new leadership from that church.  On Thursday I plan to visit Trinity seminary outside of Pittsburgh.  That's all I can say for now ...

Maryland Brian
StJohnMD.org

[Maryland Brian]

Ken,

Here's the link to the Anglican Orphanage we support.  One of our members, a twenty-something, coordinates this web site.  Another twenty something in our congregation filmed and put together the little intro video clip on the site.  If you visit our homepage you'll see a link to this site too.

Maryland Brian

http://www.gsotanzania.org/

[Charles_Austin]

Brian (the Maryland one) gives the kind of clear and reasoned answer which I have found lacking from a lot of other people. He says clearly, the ELCA, along with a lot more of American Protestantism, is already heterodox and lost, ineffectual and foundering in the slough of sticky-wussy liberalism.

So my follow-up question. You are no longer trying to "fix" the ELCA. Why stay in? Why bear the label? Even if you claim you need nothing from the bishop or synod or ELCA? And isn't it a violation of our ordination, not to mention our convictions, and perhaps perilous for our immortal soul to have an affiliation with a church body that is so lost?

But thanks for the unequivocal declaration.

[Gary Hatcher]

Brian (the Maryland one) gives the kind of clear and reasoned answer which I have found lacking from a lot of other people. He says clearly, the ELCA, along with a lot more of American Protestantism, is already heterodox and lost, ineffectual and foundering in the slough of sticky-wussy liberalism.

So my follow-up question. You are no longer trying to "fix" the ELCA. Why stay in? Why bear the label? Even if you claim you need nothing from the bishop or synod or ELCA? And isn't it a violation of our ordination, not to mention our convictions, and perhaps perilous for our immortal soul to have an affiliation with a church body that is so lost?

But thanks for the unequivocal declaration.

So, give up on the church of my baptism, the church I was confirmed in, married in, ordained in, have been blessed with the Holy Sacrament of the Supper, in which my children were baptized, my grandchildren,  just walk away without much as a peep because you tire of our efforts to hold on to what we believe to be the faith? Make fun Charles, have a good laugh at how clever you are, how witty and smart.  Continue to make fun of those who are as zealous for the tradition as those who would change it.  It is still our church, we have a right, an obligation to fight for it.

[Steven Tibbetts]

Just make sure you have the right Brian ... :-)

Yeah.  When we started this in the fall of 1993, you were near Pittsburgh, the other Brian was in Wyoming, I was here, and all three of us were wondering just what those leading our studies in sexuality were thinking.  I suspect none of us thought we'd be here 13+ years later.

So Steve, what's your point of no return in this denomination?   

I honestly don't know.  That the gay activists have suddenly turned themselves into a likely focus for the Churchwide Assembly throws everything up in the air.  I continue to hope and pray that more Krauths will rise up to oppose this pack of S. S. Schmuckers who have taken control of the ELCA's proclamation.  It helps to be in the midwest, rather than one of the coasts, surrounded by faithful Anglicans.  It helps to be connected with the faithful who are still in the Church of Sweden despite what the political parties and the Bishops have made of a once-mighty Lutheran church. 

And, ironically, it helps that the congregation I serve is one of those that you often write about -- small, with dim prospects in anything other than the immediate future.  It depends on how many funerals we have, but I may have to actually submit the draft mobility papers I've written (which pretty clearly outline the theology I preach and teach, in accordance with my ordination vows) sometime after my 50th birthday, at which point I'll find out for sure if the ELCA is big enough for pastors like me.  Assuming this CWA doesn't make that abundantly clear now.  Whatever happens, I'll tend the sheep I under-shepherd as faithfully as I can.

Christe eleison, Steven+

[scott3]

I'm curious.  With all this talk of what it would take to finally be in such disagreement with the direction the ELCA is going that folks may consider leaving, how many people would be willing to consider the LCMS?

I'm asking especially in light of the latest Lutheran Forum Newsletter that went out where Robert Benne nicely elucidated the two sides of our schizophrenic synod.  There are folks who are quite conservative theologically (I think Peter and I, among others, are good examples of this) but aren't total jerks (just partial jerks) along with those who revel in jerkiness.

If the LCMS would not be considered a possible home, why not?

Maybe this deserves its own thread...

[Mel Harris]

...  the Concordat (if it follows into the new Anglican Province that will probably be started in North America) opens the door to seek new leadership from that church.

It might be nice, but....

As I understand Called to Common Mission, it is an agreement between the ELCA and what was then ECUSA and is now TEC.  The way it now looks to me, TEC may end up not being a member, or at least not a full member, of the Anglican Communion; but TEC would still be the church body in "full communion" with the ELCA.  If the ELCA wanted to be in "full communion" with any of the existing or future Anglican Churches in this country (besides TEC), then a new agreement would have to be reached and approved.

Mel Harris

[Charles_Austin]

To Gary Hatcher:

Listen carefully. I do not want - repeat, I do not want - those who call themselves "traditionalists" to leave the ELCA. And I understand that it is their church as well as it is mine and it is the church home of those who are advocating change. I have said upstream many times that I think we need the voices of those "traditionalists."

Brian's response is uniquely his; stated more explicitely than the comments of others. I would be sorry to see him and his parish leave the ELCA or - as he states - neglect our common mission while still remaining in our fellowship.

My question was: if the ELCA moves towards certain positions on certain issues, which position and/or issue is the make-or-break deal? This is a question for the consciences of those who may disagree with the ELCA on certain issues.

Again, I said many times upstream; I did not like the agreement for eucharistic fellowship with the UCC; and I still don't. But I am not going to leave the ELCA over it, nor am I going to refuse to commune with UCC colleagues (though there aren't many of them in New Jersey, which is generally Reformed Church in America and Presbyterian territory.)

I do not want people to "walk away with out a peep" (though there is much more than "peeping" going on among those who might in the future walk away. I want us to find a way to stay together, work together, serve together, do mission together, worship and pray and study together, even if - repeat again: even if - we disagree on issues relating to same sex unions and non-celibate gay clergy.

Is that possible? I hope so.

[Charles_Austin]

And ... with all due respect to Scott and Peter, good representatives of the LC-MS who present careful articulations of its views ... I find it a bit creepy when representatives of other churches begin to say: "You don't like your church? Why not come over to ours?"

If a member of another parish, whom I meet in synod or regional activities, complains about his or her pastor or church or choir director or Sunday School superintendent; I always encourage them to stay there and try to work it out. I am very very reluctant to say, "well, come on over to my parish and you will be happier." 

[Eric_Swensson]

Ah, Charles, you want to bring in "creep factor"? Are you sure? Perhaps this is a generational thing, but hear me out. To me, Scott and Peter speak with a Lutheran voice, they have many of the same concerns I have, not only about faith, but about raising children, about the growing church in Africa (Scott that is), many things. And then I meet with my synod and here impassioned arguements such as "I used to be a scientists and we know that there are really 17 different sexes." Lundblad goes to Atlanta and preaches that "it is a very dangerouos thing to deny the flesh." Give me a break. Creep factor!

You've spent the last two years crusading against the wrong crowd. If you want to preserve the institution you should have spent several hours each day urging caution to the gay activists.

People are making noises about leaving because they are not only creeped out, they do not want to spend years (actually, for many, the rest of their careers) hearing this.

North American Lutheranism, which way goest though?

[Mel Harris]

And ... with all due respect to Scott and Peter, good representatives of the LC-MS who present careful articulations of its views ... I find it a bit creepy when representatives of other churches begin to say: "You don't like your church? Why not come over to ours?"

I did not take Scott's question as an invitation to join the LC-MS.  (I doubt that he even has the authority to extend that invitation.)  I took it literally as a question.

I'm curious.  With all this talk of what it would take to finally be in such disagreement with the direction the ELCA is going that folks may consider leaving, how many people would be willing to consider the LCMS?

I can understand how he might be curious about who might consider joining his church body and why some might or might not consider doing so.

Mel Harris