Author Topic: Berger on Same-Sex Marriage  (Read 6350 times)

Charles_Austin

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Re: Berger on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #75 on: February 24, 2011, 02:43:01 AM »
dcharlton writes:
I'm not talking about events of the past.  Nor am I asking about illicit ordinations, in particular. I'm talking about those whose convictions prevent them from preaching and teaching as they have promised to do.   As I have stated, I'm talking about those who are offended by the doctrine of the Trinity, by orthodox Christology, by the doctrine of the Atonement, by the doctrine of Original Sin. 
I respond:
If I encountered any of those people and if they held the positions you describe, I would object. You say "There are positions taken by ELCA pastors that by the most generous standard are a rejection of the Creeds and Confessions, if not of Scripture itself." That is your judgment. There may be such pastors. I do not know any.

Charles_Austin

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Re: Berger on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #76 on: February 24, 2011, 02:56:22 AM »
Pastor Copeck writes (re my challenge):
You're not worth the trouble.
I comment:
Then the issue is of no consequence, if you don't have the guts to follow through.

Pastor Copeck:
And FWIW, I'm pointing out your hyprocrasy.  You clearly state that you are ELCA when it suits you and routinely help others violate the expectations of their denominations. 
Me:
It's "hypocrisy." And your comments are absurd. If someone from another denomination attends your church, do you make the decision for them whether they commune or not?
Done here.

GoCubsGo

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Re: Berger on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #77 on: February 24, 2011, 08:37:58 AM »
Pastor Copeck writes (re my challenge):
You're not worth the trouble.
I comment:
Then the issue is of no consequence, if you don't have the guts to follow through.

Pastor Copeck:
And FWIW, I'm pointing out your hyprocrasy.  You clearly state that you are ELCA when it suits you and routinely help others violate the expectations of their denominations. 
Me:
It's "hypocrisy." And your comments are absurd. If someone from another denomination attends your church, do you make the decision for them whether they commune or not?
Done here.
You're not worth it because I honestly don't believe the ELCA woiuld do anything.  This being the same group with bishops who got up during CWA09 and said, "We should approve the full communion agreement with the UMC since we have been acting as if it were in place for years.  So, when a group thumbs their nose at rules why would the discipline you or breaking one.  Not to mention that your attitude and behavior makes you unworthy of any attempt to correct your behavior.  Like I said you're simply not worth my trouble.

And, if someone from another denomination attends and I know their status, and I know that their denomination forbids their communing (for example Roman Catholics) I don't commune them.  I tell them ahead of time that I don't want to violate the understanding of their denomination and as yet it is always been understood and accepted. 

And thanks for correcting the typo.  It only proves that you are an ass and truly not worth the effort.  I'm done here too.

DCharlton

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Re: Berger on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #78 on: February 24, 2011, 09:46:49 AM »
dcharlton writes:
I'm not talking about events of the past.  Nor am I asking about illicit ordinations, in particular. I'm talking about those whose convictions prevent them from preaching and teaching as they have promised to do.   As I have stated, I'm talking about those who are offended by the doctrine of the Trinity, by orthodox Christology, by the doctrine of the Atonement, by the doctrine of Original Sin.  
I respond:
If I encountered any of those people and if they held the positions you describe, I would object. You say "There are positions taken by ELCA pastors that by the most generous standard are a rejection of the Creeds and Confessions, if not of Scripture itself." That is your judgment. There may be such pastors. I do not know any.


So you find plenty of conservatives that "have a decision to make" but have never met someone to your left that "had a decision to make".  I think that expresses well not only your bias, but that of the ELCA as well.  I'll summarize:

If you are a liberal pastor of the ELCA, to merely profess loyalty to the ELCA and it's statement of faith is sufficient.  You may condemn the ELCA, prophetically violate its policiesl and encourage others to do so.  It is wrong for anyone to question your commitment or integrity, especially if you continue to send benevolence.

If you are a conservative pastor in the ELCA, is is not enough to profess loyalty to the ELCA and its statement of faith.  You must speak well of the ELCA at all times, and abide its policies without exception, admonishing others to do the same.  If not, you have a decision to make.  
« Last Edit: February 24, 2011, 09:59:49 AM by DCharlton »
David Charlton  

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DCharlton

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Re: Berger on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #79 on: February 24, 2011, 09:51:54 AM »

Well said, Steven.  Charles' exasperation with those who consider loyatly to Canon, Creed and Confessions ...

Yet, when we profess that we are loyal to the Canon, Creed, and Confessions, you (a generic you) call us liars.

Our exasperation is with those who insist that the only way to be loyal to the Canon, Creed, and Confessions is to interpret and use them exactly the same way that they do.

I think you and I would agree that someone who taught a Zwinglian understanding of the  Lord's Supper could not credibly claim to be teaching in accordance with the Lutheran Confessions.  Simply saying, "My interpretation is as Lutheran as yours," would not suffice.  Even being as generous as we can, there are some limits.  Yet a person who rejects Article I of the AC by caling the Trinity an outmoded patriarchal metapor should be given a pass?  Or that those who reject Article III as dangerous doctrine that causes religious strife and sadistic violence?

An ELCA pastor at a friend's church was one of those who no longer confessed the Creeds -- and did not do so during worship. He had a decision to make -- whether he could legitimately continue to pastor at a congregation and in a church body whose beliefs he no longer shared. It was also clear that his actions were destroying the congregation. About half of the congregation council resigned. Many were calling for the pastor's resignation. He had a decision to make. He made it. The congregation is presently vacant and trying to regroup after his fairly short pastorate. The pastor before him had different issues (they were not related to misconduct) and was asked to resign and has left the clergy roster.

Good for that pastor.  Whether he should have done so sooner or not, he ultimately acted with integrity.
David Charlton  

Was Algul Siento a divinity school?

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Berger on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #80 on: February 24, 2011, 11:12:59 AM »

Well said, Steven.  Charles' exasperation with those who consider loyatly to Canon, Creed and Confessions ...

Yet, when we profess that we are loyal to the Canon, Creed, and Confessions, you (a generic you) call us liars.

Our exasperation is with those who insist that the only way to be loyal to the Canon, Creed, and Confessions is to interpret and use them exactly the same way that they do.

I think you and I would agree that someone who taught a Zwinglian understanding of the  Lord's Supper could not credibly claim to be teaching in accordance with the Lutheran Confessions.  Simply saying, "My interpretation is as Lutheran as yours," would not suffice.  Even being as generous as we can, there are some limits.  Yet a person who rejects Article I of the AC by caling the Trinity an outmoded patriarchal metapor should be given a pass?  Or that those who reject Article III as dangerous doctrine that causes religious strife and sadistic violence?

An ELCA pastor at a friend's church was one of those who no longer confessed the Creeds -- and did not do so during worship. He had a decision to make -- whether he could legitimately continue to pastor at a congregation and in a church body whose beliefs he no longer shared. It was also clear that his actions were destroying the congregation. About half of the congregation council resigned. Many were calling for the pastor's resignation. He had a decision to make. He made it. The congregation is presently vacant and trying to regroup after his fairly short pastorate. The pastor before him had different issues (they were not related to misconduct) and was asked to resign and has left the clergy roster.

Good for that pastor.  Whether he should have done so sooner or not, he ultimately acted with integrity.

His "integrity" happened after the congregation started falling apart and many were calling for his resignation. Properly, in my opinion, he shouldn't have taken the Call to that congregation -- which is known as a fairly conservative one. While family and financial concerns may be part of a reason for accepting a Call, my hunch is that this pastor accepted the Call primarily for those reasons and not because he believed that he was a good match for that congregation.

(For full disclosure: part of the reason, but a very small part, for accepting my present call is that it is in the same town where my 81-year-old mother lives. The next closest family member is 700 miles away.)
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

James Gustafson

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Re: Berger on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #81 on: February 24, 2011, 11:53:19 AM »
His "integrity" happened after the congregation started falling apart and many were calling for his resignation. Properly, in my opinion, he shouldn't have taken the Call to that congregation -- which is known as a fairly conservative one. While family and financial concerns may be part of a reason for accepting a Call, my hunch is that this pastor accepted the Call primarily for those reasons and not because he believed that he was a good match for that congregation.

(For full disclosure: part of the reason, but a very small part, for accepting my present call is that it is in the same town where my 81-year-old mother lives. The next closest family member is 700 miles away.)

If a person can't confess the Creeds honestly and with integrity, then they shouldn't take the Call to any Christian congregation, at all, anywhere, ever, period.

As to choosing to accept a call with a side benefit of being near to family, you have no reason whatsoever to disclose or apologize for that, not in my book anyway.

John Theiss

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Re: Berger on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #82 on: February 24, 2011, 01:31:19 PM »

Well said, Steven.  Charles' exasperation with those who consider loyatly to Canon, Creed and Confessions ...

Yet, when we profess that we are loyal to the Canon, Creed, and Confessions, you (a generic you) call us liars.

Our exasperation is with those who insist that the only way to be loyal to the Canon, Creed, and Confessions is to interpret and use them exactly the same way that they do.

Brian, I sense a bit of irony here, as in a very real sense that is your position - that there should be the latitude to interpret and use them in a variety of ways, which latitude should be exactly acceptable to all.

Coach-Rev

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Re: Berger on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #83 on: February 24, 2011, 04:33:01 PM »
If a person can't confess the Creeds honestly and with integrity, then they shouldn't take the Call to any Christian congregation, at all, anywhere, ever, period.


Yes, I agree.  That said, I saw many of my fellow seminary classmates who were there all for the wrong reasons, mainly to show just how "wrong" traditional folk were on a whole host of topics.  It had nothing to do with the Gospel.  It had everything to do with advancing one's own particular agenda, which is something the ELCA has been good at since its inception.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Berger on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #84 on: February 24, 2011, 05:23:10 PM »
As to choosing to accept a call with a side benefit of being near to family, you have no reason whatsoever to disclose or apologize for that, not in my book anyway.

I felt that it was necessary to make a comment, since I was criticizing someone else for taking a call to be closer to family. If that is the primary purpose for accepting a call, I have a problem with that. If one would have accepted the Call even if no family were nearby, then the nearness of family is an added benefit; but not determinative for accepting a Call.

I comment also: my mother is not a member of the congregation I am serving, although she shows up for worship now and then.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

grabau

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Re: Berger on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #85 on: February 28, 2011, 01:24:33 PM »
In many cases today the spouse's employment becomes determinative.  In my day personal con siderations were not supposed to apply.  grabau

grabau

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Re: Berger on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #86 on: February 28, 2011, 01:41:27 PM »
It may help to remember that altho the RC Church holds that ordination imparts an indelible character a priest must be granted 'faculties' by his bishop. grabau