Author Topic: Berger on Same-Sex Marriage  (Read 6344 times)

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Berger on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #30 on: February 20, 2011, 07:51:03 PM »
I submit that if "your Lutheranism" (which is your term, not mine!) is so difficult to understand, then it is not all the rest of us who need to try hard to understand you, it is you who need to try harder to do a better job of explaining.

We have both defined our Lutheranism quite often. It is summarized in the ELCA's Confession of Faith.

The disagreements aren't over the general summary, the disagreements are over the details and subtleties.

Within the ELCA, it is not the details and subtleties that define us a Lutheran, but the general summary. We allow differences. One's convictions about same-gender marriages does not a Lutheran make.


Which is one more reason why the ELCA's theological teachings are suspect at best.

One's position on same-gender marriages or same gender sexual activity can indeed determine if one is a Lutheran or "Lutheran In Name Only". Your arguments that simply being signed up with the ELCA is all it takes to be a Lutheran make it increasingly evident that the ELCA no longer deserves to have an "L" in its acronym.

Pointing out that the fact that the ELCA allows (if not actually encourages) differences on such issues is the most damning statement one can make about the ELCA. Basically, the more you point out how the ELCA doesn't care about the subtleties and nuances of one's beliefs, the more that any claim that being on the roster of the ELCA proves one is a real Lutheran and not just a LINO is so much hogwash.

It was stated very clearly in my seminary that each of us were to develop our own theology within the Lutheran framework. Lutheranism was a general framework. Our personal theologies were the differences and subtleties. If you spent much time in an ALC/LCA/ELCA seminary (like we clergy do) I'd think you know this.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

George Erdner

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Re: Berger on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #31 on: February 20, 2011, 08:06:12 PM »
It was stated very clearly in my seminary that each of us were to develop our own theology within the Lutheran framework. Lutheranism was a general framework. Our personal theologies were the differences and subtleties. If you spent much time in an ALC/LCA/ELCA seminary (like we clergy do) I'd think you know this.

I guess you missed that part I highlighted.

DCharlton

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Re: Berger on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2011, 10:10:59 PM »
If, "amos," you feel that being a pastor in the ELCA conflicts with your faith in God and if you believe that the ELCA has departed from what you consider to be valid faith, then you have a decision to make.
If you think that to "teach the Gospel of Jesus Christ no longer appears to be the the focus" of the ELCA, then you have a decision to make.
It seems to me that if you cannot fulfill your obligations as a pastor in the ELCA, then you must resign from its ministry. Your "call" to serve God is still valid, perhaps your ordination can still be recognized and accepted by some church body. But we are not pastors in a vacuum, as I have said many times, we are pastors within the context of a church body and if we find that our responsibilities there conflict with our faith, then we must leave that church body. I would if I felt that way. There was a time (in LCA days) when I considered doing so.



Should those who consider the Doctrine of the Trinity to be a form of idolatry that perpetuates the oppression of women also take your advice?  Should those who consider Doctrine of the Incarnation a form of idolatry that perpetuates interreligious prejudice and violence take your advice?  Should those who cannot in good conscience pray the Our Father take your advice? 
« Last Edit: February 20, 2011, 10:14:15 PM by DCharlton »
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Was Algul Siento a divinity school?

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Berger on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #33 on: February 20, 2011, 11:50:01 PM »

It's likely that most of us pastor [sic] do that when we pronounce the benediction. There are unrepentant sinners in the congregation; and we ask God to bless them.

 ::)
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Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Berger on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #34 on: February 20, 2011, 11:57:48 PM »

Also: churlish |ˈ ch ərli sh |adjective: rude in a mean-spirited and surly way

How was my comment: "rude in a mean-spirited and surly way"?


You might try (re-?) reading how the word was actually used.

spt+
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Berger on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #35 on: February 21, 2011, 01:17:34 AM »
It was stated very clearly in my seminary that each of us were to develop our own theology within the Lutheran framework. Lutheranism was a general framework. Our personal theologies were the differences and subtleties. If you spent much time in an ALC/LCA/ELCA seminary (like we clergy do) I'd think you know this.

I guess you missed that part I highlighted.

Considering that the seminary faculty (the endorsing committee in the ALC) certified me for ordination and a congregation saw fit to call me and a bishop saw fit to authorize my ordination attests to the Lutheranism of my beliefs. In addition, through a good part of my ministry I have been asked to serve on synod committees -- another indication that the wider church considers my beliefs "Lutheran". In my present synod, I'm on the committee that plans the leadership training for our clergy and our bishop's retreat. I've been asked to speak at other events in other synods; and numerous bishops make use of my exegetical work.

Who, besides yourself, has endorsed and certified your Lutheranism?
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Charles_Austin

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Re: Berger on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2011, 01:23:10 AM »
Mr. Jorgensen writes:
Charles, you often confuse me!
Are you saying that the Almighty Bishop and his cohorts in Chicago can't be wrong? Also are you saying that you approve of blessing homosexual unions?
I comment:
Don't be silly. of course men and women can be wrong. Your use of terminology - "Almighty Bishop," "his cohorts in Chicago" - indicate that you have an animus towards the leaders of the ELCA which suggests that my words to you will be futile. I don't know your status or relationship to the ELCA, but I doubt that it is healthy. That's your problem. It is the policy of the ELCA that pastors may bless same sex unions. Some do and have done so for years. Some will not do so and probably won't do so in the future.
But you know that.

And we must note, yet again, Mr. Erdner's foul language - "pile of crap" - about the views of Pastor Stoffregen and myself and his insistence that he is the one to decide whether one's "Lutheranism" is valid. Pastor Stoffregen and this humble correspondent have consistently refused to use vile language to characterize the views of those who disagree with us or to write them out of the Lutheran fellowship. My complaints to the moderators about Mr. Edner's language have not brought an end to his vituperations, though they have on rare occasion edited some of his viciousness. I count nine times in the past two days that he has used such language.
So all I can do is point out the mean-spirited nature of his posts about us.
But of course, it doesn't matter, because Mr. Erdner believes it is possible to get "close" to knowing the fullness of God. And BTW, he is equally disdainful of the revered theologians that have formed the LCMS and sniffs haughtily when they are cited by members of that church body.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2011, 01:49:01 AM by Charles_Austin »

Vern

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Re: Berger on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2011, 04:33:28 PM »
Charles, you didn't answer the one question very cleary for a lowly lay person like me. Do you or do you not approve of the blessing of sin?

Charles_Austin

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Re: Berger on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2011, 05:13:54 PM »
Vernon Jorgensen writes:
Charles, you didn't answer the one question very cleary for a lowly lay person like me. Do you or do you not approve of the blessing of sin?

I respond:
I do not approve the blessing of sin. I suspect that over the years I might have given a blessing to sinners.  ;D ;)

Vern

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Re: Berger on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2011, 07:58:04 PM »
Vernon Jorgensen writes:
Charles, you didn't answer the one question very cleary for a lowly lay person like me. Do you or do you not approve of the blessing of sin?

I respond:
I do not approve the blessing of sin. I suspect that over the years I might have given a blessing to sinners.  ;D ;)

I commend you for the blessing of sinners, sir, it what you Pastors are supposed to do, isn't it?

Michael Slusser

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Re: Berger on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #40 on: February 21, 2011, 08:01:17 PM »
Vernon Jorgensen writes:
Charles, you didn't answer the one question very cleary for a lowly lay person like me. Do you or do you not approve of the blessing of sin?

I respond:
I do not approve the blessing of sin. I suspect that over the years I might have given a blessing to sinners.  ;D ;)

Gracefully answered, Charles--and you have stopped starving your cat, I trust?  ;D

Peace,
Michael
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Charles_Austin

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Re: Berger on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #41 on: February 21, 2011, 09:32:44 PM »
Actually, Fr. Slusser, my "sin" with regard to my companion animal would be overfeeding. But Sally is a judicious eater and will never be a fat cat.

Coach-Rev

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Re: Berger on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2011, 08:56:27 AM »
If, "amos," you feel that being a pastor in the ELCA conflicts with your faith in God and if you believe that the ELCA has departed from what you consider to be valid faith, then you have a decision to make.
If you think that to "teach the Gospel of Jesus Christ no longer appears to be the the focus" of the ELCA, then you have a decision to make.
It seems to me that if you cannot fulfill your obligations as a pastor in the ELCA, then you must resign from its ministry. Your "call" to serve God is still valid, perhaps your ordination can still be recognized and accepted by some church body. But we are not pastors in a vacuum, as I have said many times, we are pastors within the context of a church body and if we find that our responsibilities there conflict with our faith, then we must leave that church body. I would if I felt that way. There was a time (in LCA days) when I considered doing so.



Charles, stop being judge, jury, and executioner for those who disagree with you!  We are most definitely NOT pastors within the context of a church body as you define, we are supposed to, all of us, be pastors within the context of God's revelation AND mystery, as seen most importantly in the pages of what we call "Holy Scripture."  Quite frankly, I'm tired of your incessant rants that those who disagree with the ELCA have a "choice to make."

And FWIW, amos has done just that:  he has left the ELCA's roster.  And whether or not I leave the ELCA roster is also, quite frankly, none of your business. 


Charles_Austin

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Re: Berger on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2011, 01:14:55 PM »
Coach-rev writes:
Charles, stop being judge, jury, and executioner for those who disagree with you!
I comment:
I am not judging, adjudicating or executing anyone. I am only offering personal comments.

Coach-rev writes:
We are most definitely NOT pastors within the context of a church body as you define, we are supposed to, all of us, be pastors within the context of God's revelation AND mystery, as seen most importantly in the pages of what we call "Holy Scripture."  
I respond:
You persistently misread and misinterpret my comments. Or you are willfully ignorant. When you were ordained as a Lutheran, you were ordained into the public ministry of a particular denomination, given responsibilities within and to that denomination. We are not freelance, independent clergy, but clergy within a certain context. Such were our ordination and installation pledges.
You may deny that, but it happened. You can even abscond from the call to be a pastor within a church body, and say you have your own view of ministry, authority and accountability. But then you place yourself in a different context. That's all right with me; just don't pretend that it is otherwise. Our church bodies have the right to remove us from the roster. You can go on and call yourself pastor in another context; but so long as you are on the roster of the ELCA, or LCMS or WELS, that is the context of your ordained ministry.

Coach-rev:
Quite frankly, I'm tired of your incessant rants that those who disagree with the ELCA have a "choice to make."
Me:
I rant not. And if one says the ELCA is no longer "church," no longer preaches the Gospel, and no longer commands one's loyalty, then - well duh! - a choice has to be made.

Coach-rev:
And FWIW, amos has done just that:  he has left the ELCA's roster.  And whether or not I leave the ELCA roster is also, quite frankly, none of your business.
Me:
For heaven's sake, take a breath! So long as you are on the roster of the ELCA, your ministry and welfare is my business as we are fellow workers in the same vineyard. I should care whether you leave, the way you would care if one of your members leaves your congregation. If "amos" has left the ELCA roster, I wish him (or her) well in the new endeavor. If you do, same to you. But until then, we're together in this, whether you like it or not.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2011, 01:19:31 PM by Charles_Austin »

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Berger on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2011, 01:36:21 PM »
When you were ordained as a Lutheran, you were ordained into the public ministry of a particular denomination, given responsibilities within and to that denomination. We are not freelance, independent clergy, but clergy within a certain context. Such were our ordination and installation pledges.


Charles, I have just re-read the ordinations rites in LBW and SBH -- that would be as Coach-Rev, amos, you, and I were ordained.  And what you assert here simply is not anywhere to be found.  We have been ordained into the Holy Ministry of the Church, not a particular denomination. 

I wish I knew where you (and so many of the ELCA's leaders) picked up this sectarian notion that is suddenly infecting this church.

Pax, Steven+
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