Author Topic: Berger on Same-Sex Marriage  (Read 6315 times)

passerby

  • ALPB Forum Regular
  • ***
  • Posts: 187
    • View Profile
Berger on Same-Sex Marriage
« on: February 15, 2011, 05:08:59 PM »
Lutheran sociologist Peter Berger has an interesting take on same-sex marriage at his blog:

http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/berger/2011/02/09/some-personal-reflections-on-same-sex-marriage/

I think he takes a minimalist view of the Lutheran view of marriage (is it just that Lutheran ministers bless unions that are already in place?), but he applies the law-gospel teachings in an interesting way to civil unions. What thinketh the forum?

vicarbob

  • Guest
Re: Berger on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2011, 12:36:03 AM »
I think that some of the comments on the articles page are right on. The author is a sociologist not a Lutheran theologian as evident in his Law/Gospel application to marriage. While marriage is not a Sacrament, it is still Sacred. I do agree with a helpful distinction made by one posting a comment.
Marriage= between man/woman + God
Union= two adults+ State
I did like the article, very informative....just not theologically.
But I'm not sociologist
pax
PiT E

revklak

  • Guest
Re: Berger on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2011, 08:10:26 AM »
I think that some of the comments on the articles page are right on. The author is a sociologist not a Lutheran theologian as evident in his Law/Gospel application to marriage. While marriage is not a Sacrament, it is still Sacred. I do agree with a helpful distinction made by one posting a comment.
Marriage= between man/woman + God
Union= two adults+ State
I did like the article, very informative....just not theologically.
But I'm not sociologistpax
PiT E

Neither am I -- I am more (four) Marks-ist!   ;D

Vern

  • Guest
Re: Berger on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2011, 04:29:44 PM »
I can't understand how any Lutheran Pastor could chose to bless sin.

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 43260
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: Berger on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2011, 05:15:07 PM »
I can't understand how any Lutheran Pastor could chose to bless sin.

It's likely that most of us pastor do that when we pronounce the benediction. There are unrepentant sinners in the congregation; and we ask God to bless them.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Mike Bennett

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 1031
    • View Profile
Re: Berger on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2011, 05:43:24 PM »
I can't understand how any Lutheran Pastor could chose to bless sin.

It's likely that most of us pastor do that when we pronounce the benediction. There are unrepentant sinners in the congregation; and we ask God to bless them.

Signed onto ALPB for the first time in a week, and got ticked off at a subscriber for making a churlish comment.  Next I read your reply here, and I want to respond with a churlish comment.  Can't win.

Mike Bennett
“What peace can there be, so long as the many whoredoms and sorceries of your mother Jezebel continue?”  2 Kings 9:22

Charles_Austin

  • Guest
Re: Berger on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2011, 06:31:25 PM »
Theology and pastoral care is messy. Those who want everything in neat packages, black-and-white print in a san serif typeface are going to be disappointed. Those who do not understand, after all these years, how Pastor Stoffregen and I explain our Lutheranism will just have to try harder.

Evangel

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 780
  • Rev. Mark Schimmel
    • View Profile
Re: Berger on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2011, 06:54:18 PM »
Actually there is a huge difference between blessing sinners and blessing sin.  Brian is deflecting rather than saying what he really thinks about Vern's comment.
Mark Schimmel, Pastor
Zion Lutheran Church, LCMC
Priddy, TX
--
ACXXIII, "Your majesty will graciously take into account the fact that, in these last times of which the Scriptures prophesy, the world is growing worse and men are becoming weaker and more infirm."

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 43260
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: Berger on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2011, 08:01:20 PM »
Actually there is a huge difference between blessing sinners and blessing sin.  Brian is deflecting rather than saying what he really thinks about Vern's comment.

I said what I really thought about Vern's comment. Those pastors who conduct "blessing" ceremonies are blessing sinners; not sin -- pretty much like we do at the end of each worship service. An even more parallel action is the blessing of heterosexual couples who have been living "in sin". Does the marriage rite bless their sin?

Also: churlish |ˈ ch ərli sh |adjective: rude in a mean-spirited and surly way

How was my comment: "rude in a mean-spirited and surly way"?
« Last Edit: February 18, 2011, 08:05:55 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

George Erdner

  • Guest
Re: Berger on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2011, 07:31:29 AM »
Actually there is a huge difference between blessing sinners and blessing sin.  Brian is deflecting rather than saying what he really thinks about Vern's comment.

I said what I really thought about Vern's comment. Those pastors who conduct "blessing" ceremonies are blessing sinners; not sin -- pretty much like we do at the end of each worship service. An even more parallel action is the blessing of heterosexual couples who have been living "in sin". Does the marriage rite bless their sin?

Also: churlish |ˈ ch ərli sh |adjective: rude in a mean-spirited and surly way

How was my comment: "rude in a mean-spirited and surly way"?


That is a crock. They are blessing a relationship that is based on the sin of homoerotic activity. It is a cruel and bitter joke played on the homosexuals. In a normal relationship, a heterosexual couple is expected to refrain from physical intimacy until they are married. It's the whole "save yourself for your wedding night" thing, which is so obvious it shouldn't need to be brought up. The statement at the end of a real wedding between a man and a woman, "You may now kiss the bride" is a euphemism for "You may now engage in intercourse later tonight to consummate the marriage". The "blessing" of a homosexual relationship is a twisted parody of marriage as God intended it, with the implication that once the homosexual partnership is blessed, they can engage in homoerotic activity without it being an act of sin, which is a lie.

George Erdner

  • Guest
Re: Berger on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2011, 07:33:18 AM »
Theology and pastoral care is messy. Those who want everything in neat packages, black-and-white print in a san serif typeface are going to be disappointed. Those who do not understand, after all these years, how Pastor Stoffregen and I explain our Lutheranism will just have to try harder.

Maybe you and Stoffregen could either change your own thinking and return to Lutheranism instead of practicing your own unique variation, or you and Stoffregen could find a new label for your personal belief systems.

Charles_Austin

  • Guest
Re: Berger on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2011, 09:08:00 AM »
Mr. Erdner writes:
In a normal relationship, a heterosexual couple is expected to refrain from physical intimacy until they are married. It's the whole "save yourself for your wedding night" thing, which is so obvious it shouldn't need to be brought up. The statement at the end of a real wedding between a man and a woman, "You may now kiss the bride" is a euphemism for "You may now engage in intercourse later tonight to consummate the marriage".
I comment:
There are so many errors there that it would be futile to try and make clarifications.

Mr. Erdner writes:
The "blessing" of a homosexual relationship is a twisted parody of marriage as God intended it, with the implication that once the homosexual partnership is blessed, they can engage in homoerotic activity without it being an act of sin, which is a lie.
I comment:
See above. And we need not go - once again - down the road of wondering just what "homoerotic" or any-kind-of-erotic activity (another repetitive concerrn of Mr. Erdners) really is.

Mr. Erdner:
Maybe you and Stoffregen could either change your own thinking and return to Lutheranism instead of practicing your own unique variation, or you and Stoffregen could find a new label for your personal belief systems.
Me.
Pastor Stoffregen and I are clergy on the roster of the ELCA, and - so far as I can tell from his posts here - operating well within the discipline of the ELCA, as (I hope) am I. At least in nearly 44 years of preaching, teaching and working with people in the LCA and ELCA, and holding positions on national and international Lutheran organizations, no one has run from my sermons or classes and no one has brought charges against me.
Maybe Mr. Erdner could abandon his curious obsession with the two of us, cease the personal attacks (two or three or more in recent days) and get on with something else. I have asked moderators for relief from these kinds of assaults, and a few of his remarks were deleted after my complaints, but the pattern continues.
Nonetheless, cheers to all. This humble corresponent is still fascinated by the recent week in the Persian Gulf, engaged in a couple of worthwhile writing projects, looking forward to a visit to grandchildren this spring, and some more exotic travel in the fall.

George Erdner

  • Guest
Re: Berger on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2011, 09:27:55 AM »
Pastor Stoffregen and I are clergy on the roster of the ELCA

And Bishop Spong was on the equivalent of the clergy roster of the Episcopal Church.


Charles_Austin

  • Guest
Re: Berger on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2011, 10:06:01 AM »
Another foul shot. I have never defended Bishop Spong and have no intention of doing so.

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 43260
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: Berger on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2011, 10:09:06 AM »
Pastor Stoffregen and I are clergy on the roster of the ELCA

And Bishop Spong was on the equivalent of the clergy roster of the Episcopal Church.

And which clergy roster are you on?
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]