Author Topic: CoWo, What's Wrong with It?  (Read 43709 times)

George Erdner

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Re: CoWo, What's Wrong with It?
« Reply #270 on: February 07, 2011, 02:18:36 PM »
My apologies to both of you if you found my attempt at clarification of denominational background as condescending.  I just wanted to clarify who was what, that's all.  It's true, Luther had major disagreements with the leaders of the Reformed Tradition (Calvin, Zwingli, et al.), especially with regards to what they taught about Holy Communion - that they believed about Christ only being "Spiritually Present," or the converse - that the believer, partaking of Holy Communion is "spiritually present" with Christ in the heavenly banquet yet to come.  The classic debate being between Ullrich Zwingli who insisted that Christ could only be spiritually present since He is seated at the Father's right hand and Luther, who held that Christ, being a member of the Godhead - the Holy Trinity - shared in his post-resurrection glory the ubiquity that the Father and the Holy Spirit have.  I think I remember hearing that Luther even went so far as to argue that Christ was in his cabbage soup to buttress Zwingli - to indicate the belief that His benefits to our lives can be found in everything that nourishes us, body and soul.    

Did Luther have any major disagreements with the Reformed or Anabaptists over what musical instruments to use in worship? Did Luther have any major disagreements with the Reformed or Anabaptists over the placement of pews in the church building? Did Luther have any major disagreements with the Reformed or Anabaptists on any secondary issues related to convincing people who didn't go to any church at all that they should start?

That would be directly relevant to whether or not Lutherans should be wiling to accept advice from non-Lutherans on church issues unrelated to theological understanding of the Gospel or Sacraments, wouldn't you agree?

Dan Fienen

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Re: CoWo, What's Wrong with It?
« Reply #271 on: February 07, 2011, 02:28:32 PM »
I don't have references right at hand, but I do think that Luther had issues with iconoclasts, of which the anabaptists were often examples.  By analogy, I think that Luther would have problems with any group today who demand that traditional worship styles or church architecture and decoration be abandoned.  That might include some of far out contemporary worship liturgy nazies.  (I have run into a few - just as adamant that only CW is appropriate for use today {what's the matter, aren't you mission minded?!?} as the traditionalists liturgy nazies who insist that in important part of our mission is repristinating traditional liturgical forms.)

Dan
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grabau14

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Re: CoWo, What's Wrong with It?
« Reply #272 on: February 07, 2011, 03:54:22 PM »
Rev. J&S, just in case you forgot, I would like one or two hymns of the CoWo type that teach Justification for me to look at.  I have given you two from LSB up stream.

1.  I hadn't forgotten, some of us have busy days...

2.  I think you mistook the arrangement, or decided unilaterally to change it.  What I offered was...:
       a.  Me noting a couple of songs I regularly use
       b.  You analyzing them.
       c.  I consider you analysis and apply it to
                     what you use
                     the liturgy itself
                     the hymns and psalms of scripture.




1.  Your first comment is pure snark.  We all have busy days, just ask my wife and kids about how often they see me esp. this last month and half. 

2.  I will be happy to follow Fr. Weedon's advice and give you the reasons why I feel the hymns that I listed are superior.

First off, LSB 555  "Salvation unto Us Has Come."  This hymn is a dogmatics class on the doctrine of Justification.  The hymn does a very good job at showing our total dependance on the work of God in salvation.

The first stanza right off the bat shows us that we are doomed if we look to our works for our salvation and how Jesus alone is to be the source of salvation
The second stanza shows how we fall short of the Law, Original Sin language
The third stanza shows the second use of the Law in our lives.
The fourth stanza has more "old Adam" in us language- defintely showing our sinful nature.
The fifth stanza shows that we need Someone to fulfill the Law for us- Active Obedience (Christ keeping the law for us)  The fifth stanza works as a nice bridge to bring us to work of Christ for our salvation.
Stanzas 6-10
6: Christ Alone makes atonement--grace alone
7:  Baptism places us into this salvation 
8: a reminder of what the Law does but with comfort of the Gospel
9:  Faith Alone along with a reminder of living our Christian life in service towards our neighbors
10: Doxological

The reason why this is hymn is important for continual use in the Lutheran Church is simple- it teaches, can you give one CoWo that teaches Justification this clearly.  This is Pieper set to music and it is written in such a simple way that children can understand the central article of faith through song.  Luther's hymn which I will give a rationale for later is more personal (subjective) in nature than this objective one.

I hope you actually want to do this, if not let me know.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 04:11:04 PM by Rev. Matthew J. Uttenreither »

Dan Fienen

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Re: CoWo, What's Wrong with It?
« Reply #273 on: February 07, 2011, 05:13:28 PM »
If people are looking for good video resources for Bible Studies a couple of places to look are http://www.lutheranvisuals.com  and  tp://www.lhmmen.com/studies.asp .

One could also check out the resources available from CPH and FP.

Dan
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Rev. Kevin Scheuller

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Re: CoWo, What's Wrong with It?
« Reply #274 on: February 07, 2011, 09:54:42 PM »
My apologies to both of you if you found my attempt at clarification of denominational background as condescending.  I just wanted to clarify who was what, that's all.  It's true, Luther had major disagreements with the leaders of the Reformed Tradition (Calvin, Zwingli, et al.), especially with regards to what they taught about Holy Communion - that they believed about Christ only being "Spiritually Present," or the converse - that the believer, partaking of Holy Communion is "spiritually present" with Christ in the heavenly banquet yet to come.  The classic debate being between Ullrich Zwingli who insisted that Christ could only be spiritually present since He is seated at the Father's right hand and Luther, who held that Christ, being a member of the Godhead - the Holy Trinity - shared in his post-resurrection glory the ubiquity that the Father and the Holy Spirit have.  I think I remember hearing that Luther even went so far as to argue that Christ was in his cabbage soup to buttress Zwingli - to indicate the belief that His benefits to our lives can be found in everything that nourishes us, body and soul.    

Did Luther have any major disagreements with the Reformed or Anabaptists over what musical instruments to use in worship? Did Luther have any major disagreements with the Reformed or Anabaptists over the placement of pews in the church building? Did Luther have any major disagreements with the Reformed or Anabaptists on any secondary issues related to convincing people who didn't go to any church at all that they should start?

That would be directly relevant to whether or not Lutherans should be wiling to accept advice from non-Lutherans on church issues unrelated to theological understanding of the Gospel or Sacraments, wouldn't you agree?
Certainly.  The problem with Rob Bell and Rick Warren is that their teaching has infiltrated and confused Lutherans into accepting their theology at face value - I used to serve in a church where I was the associate pastor and the senior pastor led the congregation in doing the whole, "Purpose Driven Life" thing, including the messages which were not at all informed by Lutheran theology.  That's where the problem lies, not in what they can teach us about fellowship, mission trips, etc.  Learning from others about secondary issues is just fine, I guess. 

In previous posts, I've indicated that I don't believe that CoWo is all that bad (following the point of the thread title) If you look at the clips that Katie and I posted, you should find that the CCM musicians we posted had plenty of good stuff that seemed to come more from a standpoint of theology of the cross than from a theology of glory - or the "name it, claim it," kind of bunk that Joel Osteen operates in. 

Weedon

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Re: CoWo, What's Wrong with It?
« Reply #275 on: February 07, 2011, 10:02:18 PM »
I am totally an amateur musician.  Yet I must confess that I have found the music of our hymnal to be absolutely winning.  This morning, in the school, we began practicing the hymn for next week ("O Wondrous Type!  O Vision Fair!" - one year's Transfiguration falls this coming Sunday).  I played through the hymn a couple time for myself, just practicing, before the kids sang it in the Order of Responsive Prayer I.  [Why on earth is the A flatted all times, but one?  Wouldn't it have been easier to put the Ab in the key signature and then mark the ONE place with an accidental, instead of listing ALL of them but that one as accidentals?  GRR.] And I remembered how much I loved it.  They opened their mouths when the time came and belted that puppy out.  Just like they'd been singing the Agincourt Hymn forever.  When it comes to other hymnody, I join Fr. Matthew in asking:  is it really something superior to this?  And I speak of both text and tune.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 10:07:07 PM by Weedon »

George Erdner

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Re: CoWo, What's Wrong with It?
« Reply #276 on: February 07, 2011, 10:27:50 PM »
The problem with Rob Bell and Rick Warren is that their teaching has infiltrated and confused Lutherans into accepting their theology at face value - I used to serve in a church where I was the associate pastor and the senior pastor led the congregation in doing the whole, "Purpose Driven Life" thing, including the messages which were not at all informed by Lutheran theology.  That's where the problem lies, not in what they can teach us about fellowship, mission trips, etc.  Learning from others about secondary issues is just fine, I guess. 


I notice that you phrase that as "their teaching has infiltrated". It's not the teaching that does the infiltrating, it is the teachers, right? And is it really a question of the teachers or the teachings doing the infiltrating, or is it that the church leaders who are evaluating the teachings are properly separating the wheat from the chaff?

If a senior pastor swallowed the entire "Purpose Driven Life" package whole, then isn't the problem the senior pastor's bad job of looking through the Purpose Driven Life thing to see what nuggets could be picked from the gravel?

I'm reminded of Mark Twain's cat, who once sat on a hot stove and burned it's rear end. It never again sat on a hot stove. It never sat on a cold stove, either.

Drive-by Lutheran

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Re: CoWo, What's Wrong with It?
« Reply #277 on: February 07, 2011, 10:51:32 PM »
My apologies to both of you if you found my attempt at clarification of denominational background as condescending.  I just wanted to clarify who was what, that's all.  It's true, Luther had major disagreements with the leaders of the Reformed Tradition (Calvin, Zwingli, et al.), especially with regards to what they taught about Holy Communion - that they believed about Christ only being "Spiritually Present," or the converse - that the believer, partaking of Holy Communion is "spiritually present" with Christ in the heavenly banquet yet to come.  The classic debate being between Ullrich Zwingli who insisted that Christ could only be spiritually present since He is seated at the Father's right hand and Luther, who held that Christ, being a member of the Godhead - the Holy Trinity - shared in his post-resurrection glory the ubiquity that the Father and the Holy Spirit have.  I think I remember hearing that Luther even went so far as to argue that Christ was in his cabbage soup to buttress Zwingli - to indicate the belief that His benefits to our lives can be found in everything that nourishes us, body and soul.    

Did Luther have any major disagreements with the Reformed or Anabaptists over what musical instruments to use in worship? Did Luther have any major disagreements with the Reformed or Anabaptists over the placement of pews in the church building? Did Luther have any major disagreements with the Reformed or Anabaptists on any secondary issues related to convincing people who didn't go to any church at all that they should start?

That would be directly relevant to whether or not Lutherans should be wiling to accept advice from non-Lutherans on church issues unrelated to theological understanding of the Gospel or Sacraments, wouldn't you agree?
Certainly.  The problem with Rob Bell and Rick Warren is that their teaching has infiltrated and confused Lutherans into accepting their theology at face value - I used to serve in a church where I was the associate pastor and the senior pastor led the congregation in doing the whole, "Purpose Driven Life" thing, including the messages which were not at all informed by Lutheran theology.  That's where the problem lies, not in what they can teach us about fellowship, mission trips, etc.  Learning from others about secondary issues is just fine, I guess. 

In previous posts, I've indicated that I don't believe that CoWo is all that bad (following the point of the thread title) If you look at the clips that Katie and I posted, you should find that the CCM musicians we posted had plenty of good stuff that seemed to come more from a standpoint of theology of the cross than from a theology of glory - or the "name it, claim it," kind of bunk that Joel Osteen operates in. 

Thank you, Rev. Scheuller.  Sadly, no one seems to want to talk about the Church Growth Movement and Ablaze!, and how they have damaged and maimed the LCMS.  "Worship Wars" indeed!

Karl Hess

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Re: CoWo, What's Wrong with It?
« Reply #278 on: February 07, 2011, 11:12:04 PM »

Did Luther have any major disagreements with the Reformed or Anabaptists over what musical instruments to use in worship?

Yes. 

SteveS

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Re: CoWo, What's Wrong with It?
« Reply #279 on: February 07, 2011, 11:14:21 PM »
Rev. Scheuller,

Thank you for your kind and thoughtful comments.  I did not find your post at all condescending.  I believe that Lutheran understanding of scripture is the most sound. However, I have been thinking a lot lately about whether we make too much of it.  There is much swimming through my head right now, but at the late hour let me just say that it would never occur to me to pray that my four children remain Lutheran as adults.  But I do pray that they remain Christian.

Sincerely,
Steve Shumate

Karl Hess

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Re: CoWo, What's Wrong with It?
« Reply #280 on: February 07, 2011, 11:25:58 PM »
Yes, I understand that Rob Bell and Beth Moore are fun "coffee house church" authors and that many LCMS Lutherans are addicted.  It is alluring stuff.  Where are the Lutheran authors?  (I do  like WorldView Everlasting a lot, but unfortunately the material is not organized in a DVD study guide format for Sunday school and small group instruction.) 

Well if you're looking for authors and not videos, there are actually quite a few confessional Lutheran books that are good.

Have you heard of or read:

1.  Dying to Live, by Harold Senkbeil
2.  The Spirituality of the Cross, by Gene Edward Veith
3.  The Fire and the Staff, by Klemet Preus?

I think all of those could be read in an adult bible class.

Another really great book written on the practice of spirituality that I can't praise enough is  Grace upon Grace, by John Kleinig.  I tried to teach a bible class on it last year.  I'm going to try it again in another year or so.  It was life changing.

It never kills anyone to read Luther.  A great Luther book to read in an adult bible class would be "The Freedom of a Christian," because it is short and it applies so readily to the kinds of issues Christians face in trying to live as a Christian in the world.  It's important to find a good translation, though.  Here is a link--not because I recommend this translation, but I do know one of the guys involved in this company and have a lot of respect for him:http://www.lutheranpress.com/htlacl2.htm

Another excellent Luther book is the Large Catechism.  I can't wait until I can get to that in the Lutheran Confessions study we are doing here.  

SteveS

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Re: CoWo, What's Wrong with It?
« Reply #281 on: February 08, 2011, 07:14:53 AM »
Karl and Drive-by Lutheran,

Books vs. videos, yes that is part of the problem.  For multiple reasons we struggle to draw and maintain members in our adult Sunday school class. Requiring heavy reading just wouldn't work for us.  It is sad, but true.  (I am convicted as well.  Our past council president was well read and he would pass out various books. They are yet to be opened.)  If our class required outside reading, folks would show up unprepared and the discussion would stall.  For better or worse, Rob Bell videos naturally generate discussion.  

Let me be clear -- the faults are ours.  I wish we had the discipline to do Bible study right.

I'm ELCA (would like to be LCMC) and would love there to be a Lutheran Rob Bell out there.  Let me know when you find one.  My brother is a Baptist minister and while I don't agree with him on many issues I always listen to what he has to say and have great love and respect for him and his viewpoints.  Why would I not listen and consider what Rob Bell has to say?

Steve


Yes, I understand that Rob Bell and Beth Moore are fun "coffee house church" authors and that many LCMS Lutherans are addicted.  It is alluring stuff.  Where are the Lutheran authors?  (I do  like WorldView Everlasting a lot, but unfortunately the material is not organized in a DVD study guide format for Sunday school and small group instruction.)  

Well if you're looking for authors and not videos, there are actually quite a few confessional Lutheran books that are good.

Have you heard of or read:

1.  Dying to Live, by Harold Senkbeil
2.  The Spirituality of the Cross, by Gene Edward Veith
3.  The Fire and the Staff, by Klemet Preus?

I think all of those could be read in an adult bible class.

Another really great book written on the practice of spirituality that I can't praise enough is  Grace upon Grace, by John Kleinig.  I tried to teach a bible class on it last year.  I'm going to try it again in another year or so.  It was life changing.

It never kills anyone to read Luther.  A great Luther book to read in an adult bible class would be "The Freedom of a Christian," because it is short and it applies so readily to the kinds of issues Christians face in trying to live as a Christian in the world.  It's important to find a good translation, though.  Here is a link--not because I recommend this translation, but I do know one of the guys involved in this company and have a lot of respect for him:http://www.lutheranpress.com/htlacl2.htm

Another excellent Luther book is the Large Catechism.  I can't wait until I can get to that in the Lutheran Confessions study we are doing here.  

Weedon

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Re: CoWo, What's Wrong with It?
« Reply #282 on: February 08, 2011, 08:52:45 AM »
Steve,

For Discussion starters, have you ever looked at the incredibly frisky Pr. Fisk's:  Worldview Everlasting?

http://www.worldvieweverlasting.com/

Buckle your seat belt before he gets started!

Steverem

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Re: CoWo, What's Wrong with It?
« Reply #283 on: February 08, 2011, 08:54:01 AM »

Thank you, Rev. Scheuller.  Sadly, no one seems to want to talk about the Church Growth Movement and Ablaze!, and how they have damaged and maimed the LCMS.  "Worship Wars" indeed!


You're new here.  A LOT of people want to talk about that here, and do so ad nauseum.

Dan Fienen

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Re: CoWo, What's Wrong with It?
« Reply #284 on: February 08, 2011, 09:18:05 AM »
I am not familiar with Rob Bell, so I cannot say if Lutherans produce anything similar, but Lutheran Hour Ministries have produced a number of video based Bible Studies on a variety of topics that are quite good.  You can find them at www.lhmmen.com look under studies.  Some of these do have definite slant towards men, but many of them are appropriate for general groups.  They are not expensive (usually $15 with a reproducable study guide - free if you download it yourself) and cover topics from Biblical studies to current issues, to Islam.  You don't have to be Missouri Synod to use them.

These are the topics.

    We the People: Citizens of Two Kingdoms

By: Dr. Dale Meyer

Politics and politicians -- there's seemingly no way to escape them. Though government and those who govern are often criticized by press and citizen alike, it is through government that God works His designs in this world. Join host Dr. Dale Meyer as he surveys government in history, the character of the United States as a nation, and the Christian's role as a citizen of any country.


    Working For the Man Upstairs - Your Job... Your Calling... Your Life!

By: Rev. Tim Radkey

Is it work you're looking for or a chance to serve God? Can they be one and the same? Join us as we consider Working for the Man Upstairs, the newest Men's NetWork Bible study. See how our jobs-no matter what they might be-are a conduit through which God's work is done in this world.

    Facing Disaster Like A Man

By: Rev. Kurt Klaus

Disasters! Life's catastrophes come in many shapes and sizes, and their unwelcome intrusion leaves us reeling. Grief, profound uncertainty and -- not infrequently -- more questions than can reasonably be answered, rise from its wake. In this devastation, the heart is drawn to look for answers human reason cannot provide.

    Explaining All The Scary Stuff In Revelation

By: Rev. Ken Klaus

Nobody said demons, plagues, and an appointment with Armageddon would be fun, but it doesn't have to be feared-at least not for the Christian. Check out how the latest LHM Men's NetWork Bible study, Explaining All The Scary Stuff In Revelation, gives both insight-and encouragement to those who follow "the bright Morning Star."

    The Real St. Nick: Leader, Legend or Lie

By: Rev. Ken Klaus

This single-session Bible study, hosted by the Rev. Dr. Ken Klaus-Speaker of The Lutheran Hour, examines a man who, next to Jesus Christ, is the most visible figure during the holidays-St. Nicholas or Santa Claus-as we know him in Western culture. Dating back to the third century, St. Nick is attributed with the doing of many benevolent and charitable acts of kindness and generosity.

    How We Got The Bible

By: Dr. Paul L. Maier

As God's written Word, the 66 books of the Old and New Testaments are the source of His revelation to man.

    Challenge of Islam (Part Two): Defending the Christian Faith

By: Sam Shamoun

In Part Two of this Men's NetWork Bible study, Sam Shamoun, an Arab-Christian, examines key texts from the Qur'an and the Bible. Among the items he sheds light on are Islamic presuppositions concerning the priority of the Qur'an, Bible texts considered corrupt by Muslims, the sonship of believers, and Islam's position on the Trinity.

    Challenge of Islam (Part One): What is Islam?

By: Sam Shamoun

To the Western mind, the faith and practice of Islam are often a profound mystery. In recent years, this religion has emerged as a prominent -- yet misunderstood -- belief system. Listen as Sam Shamoun, an Arab-Christian, unveils some of the mystique surrounding this religion first preached by Muhammad and today practiced by more than one billion people worldwide.

    Out of Nothing: The Word, Creation and Faith

By: Rev. Steve Misch

In this Bible study, Pastor Steve Misch considers theories of evolution, the plausibility of random chance, man's spiritual and physical nature, and how God's creation and salvation are intrinsically linked in the person of Jesus Christ.

    He Who Dies With The Most Toys... Still Dies!

By: Rev. Tim Radkey

Toys are the things that fill our lives. Most guys are pros in the fine art of stockpiling. Whether it's motorcycles or medals, our stuff isn't going with us when we finally "pack it up" on our last day, so getting our priorities right according to God's Word is good for us and our families.

    Who Am I? What Am I Doing Here?

By: Dr. Joel D. Biermann

The universe, God's will, speaking the Christ story, true human fulfillment, God's Law, the point of it all-these are some of the ideas in Pastor Joel Biermann's explorative video Bible study. In six sessions, he takes us from the beginning to that place where, on the Last Day, we find our greatest realization as humans.

    Home Run King

By: Rev. Tim Radkey

This men's Bible study aims to weave two passions into one. The first is a passion for the game of baseball-America's time-honored pastime. The second is a passion for growing into the husband, father, and spiritual leaders God has called us to be.

    Stuff They Didn't Teach Me In Sunday School... About Genesis!

The first DVD of the series. Now available-Sunday school lessons that are more scripturally nutritional than ever!

Trying to view/download the videos online? Visit http://www.lhmmen.com/sundayschool.asp!


    Baloney Shop: Season One on DVD

You've waited all year for this baloney. Now you can own all of the Baloney Shop episodes from 2009 on one DVD. NOTE: There are NO DISCUSSION GUIDES for the Baloney Shop.!

Trying to view/download the videos online? Visit http://www.lhmmen.com/latest.asp!



Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS