Author Topic: More on How Bound Consciences Are Being Respected in the ELCA  (Read 13214 times)

Charles_Austin

  • Guest
Re: More on How Bound Consciences Are Being Respected in the ELCA
« Reply #150 on: January 21, 2011, 03:56:11 PM »
James Gustafson writes:
As if, having sex with someone to whom we are attracted is some sort of fundamental expectation and right. 

I ask:
Well, if not a "fundamental" expectation, could it at least be a sort-of, maybe, it-would-be-nice expectation?  ;D

James Gustafson

  • Guest
Re: More on How Bound Consciences Are Being Respected in the ELCA
« Reply #151 on: January 21, 2011, 04:00:52 PM »
James Gustafson writes:
As if, having sex with someone to whom we are attracted is some sort of fundamental expectation and right. 

I ask:
Well, if not a "fundamental" expectation, could it at least be a sort-of, maybe, it-would-be-nice expectation?  ;D

I don't know, what's the American divorce rate up to now?  How much longer can we play this charade, this game, before lifelong marriage in American has entirely disappeared?

GalRev83

  • Guest
Re: More on How Bound Consciences Are Being Respected in the ELCA
« Reply #152 on: January 21, 2011, 04:01:43 PM »
The blog page from CORE which reported the original incident has been removed. Does anyone know what is up?


From http://commonconfession.blogspot.com :

"Earlier this week we posted a story about challenges facing certain Oromo Evangelical Lutheran congregations, based on information provided by those involved.

We continue to believe in the accuracy of what was described in the story. But, at the subsequent request of some of those involved, we have now removed the story to provide "breathing space" for private deliberations and discussions by African immigrant congregations and their leaders."

Thank you for this!

Coach-Rev

  • Guest
Re: More on How Bound Consciences Are Being Respected in the ELCA
« Reply #153 on: January 21, 2011, 04:04:00 PM »
I've always said, "If you need a sign (or rule, or quota, or resolution, etc.) to show you are welcoming, then you probably have much more significant issues to deal with first."  Someplace that is welcoming to all that really lives it needs no sign.

Much in the same flavor as needing a sign, resolution, or "initiative" to read the Bible.  That such things are needed in the ELCA, while commendable, also shows just how deplorable the situation really is.

Pilgrim

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 1634
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: More on How Bound Consciences Are Being Respected in the ELCA
« Reply #154 on: January 21, 2011, 04:13:47 PM »
Tim just notes: Just an observation having read the last 2-3 pages of posts herein: there seem to be a total absence of the ability to distinguish between Luther's kingdom of the left and kingdom of the right being applied (and misapplied) in many of these contentions.
Pr. Tim Christ, STS

Steven Tibbetts

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 10213
  • Big tents are for circuses.
    • View Profile
Re: More on How Bound Consciences Are Being Respected in the ELCA
« Reply #155 on: January 21, 2011, 04:46:11 PM »

Not quite. After the motion to reconsider was defeated, there was a motion (I believe two related motions) to send the Concordat back to committee for revisions -- taking into account reasons for the opposition -- to be brought back to the next CWA. Thus a new proposal called Called to Common Mission was created, which had to be approved by The Episcopal Church (which had already approved the Concordat), and the ELCA.


One of the important distinctions between the eventual adoption of full-communion with the Episcopal Church and the eventual acceptance of practicing gays in the ELCA's ministry is the role within the ELCA's decision-making of those who publicly drove the opposition to the proposals once they were defeated.

When the Concordat (which required a 2/3rds vote) was very narrowly defeated, it was the successful opposition that intiated the conversations that led to the Assembly's direction that suitable modifications, taking into account the discussion, be made to the Concordat for presentation to the next CWA.  CCM made some modifications, which were (surprisingly) accepted by the ECUSA with little debate.  Ultimately, most of ELCA's oppositition to the Concordat (including the opposition member on the 3-man group that wrote it) found CCM unacceptable, but given the very narrow margin, it ought not be terribly surprising that enough found the modifications acceptable.

When the proposal for exceptions to Vision and Expectations, which was also set to require a 2/3rds vote, was not only defeated, but failed to get a simple majority, it was the unsuccessful proponents who went back to initiate another way to implement "full inclusion" of practicing GL clergy.  Which they did, over the oppostion of the token traditionalists on the Task Force.


Another difference is how officials of the church dealt with the failure of the proposals.  After the failure of the Concordat, ECUSA Bishops did not start showing up at ELCA Bishop's installations anyway and start laying hands on our Bishops.  OTOH, after the exceptions to Vision and Expectation failed, several prominent ELCA Bishops effectively, but quietly, implemented them anyway without any consequences.  In fact, if former ELCA Bishop Chilstrom's recent testimony is true, that had been happening at his explicit direction to the Conference of Bishops for years already.


This is why, from the moment I first read it, I have consistently pointed to the early footnote in Human Sexuality: Gift and Trust that includes this sentence:

            Broken promises and betrayed trust through lies, exploitation, and manipulative behavior
            are exposed, not just as an individual failing, but as an attack on the foundations of our
            lives as social beings.


That describes the ELCA today.

Kyrie eleison, Christe eleison, Kyrie eleison.  Steven+
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 05:25:16 PM by The Rev. Steven P. Tibbetts, STS »
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
Pastor Zip's Blog

Steven Tibbetts

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 10213
  • Big tents are for circuses.
    • View Profile
Re: More on How Bound Consciences Are Being Respected in the ELCA
« Reply #156 on: January 21, 2011, 05:12:39 PM »

However, the question I asked, which you did not address, do congregations have subtle and overt ways of saying, "You are not welcome here"?

Yes, Brian, they do.

OTOH, my experience -- both personally and as a Pastor -- is that often people find themselves in a situation and, because it is different, assume that they are not welcome (any longer) not realizing that 1) they would be very graciously received and/or 2) there are already several people in that congregation that are in a similar position (known to the pastor, or perhaps even the pastor himself) who offer great support the second they realize the situation.  Following that assumption, they exclude themselves.  And then, having rejected the congregation that they never gave a chance (one that perhaps had supported them through other things that would "normally" lead to exclusion), start telling others about how unwelcomed they were.

I can do anecdotes, too. 
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
Pastor Zip's Blog

Steven Tibbetts

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 10213
  • Big tents are for circuses.
    • View Profile
Because the html formatting didn't take somewhere
« Reply #157 on: January 21, 2011, 05:21:27 PM »
Let's try that again:


See document at http://www.eecmy.org/?page=!news&pagenr=2&article=39 and http://www.elct.org/news/2010.04.004.html



(The part of the first URL that is in black was a blank space in the original post.)
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 07:22:08 PM by The Rev. Steven P. Tibbetts, STS »
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
Pastor Zip's Blog

George Erdner

  • Guest
Re: More on How Bound Consciences Are Being Respected in the ELCA
« Reply #158 on: January 21, 2011, 05:36:29 PM »
I doubt if anyone hasn't experienced the situation where if one enters into a new group of people, all of whom share a common closeness or bond, things can be a little awkward. I suspect that is a universal condition for almost all people, and in almost all groups. Whether one is the new kid who moves into a school in the middle of the year, a first-time visitor at a church, the new hire at a company, the family that just moved into a new neighborhood, or the new guy invited to a weekly poker game, being the new face in any crowd has its share of difficulties.

I also do not think it a difficult stretch of the imagination to see that anyone who has a self-perception of being "different" might not be a little defensive, and might not attribute any sort of hesitation in welcome to that difference rather than to simple awkwardness on the part of those already in the group. It should come as no surprise that people attempting to make a newcomer feel welcome can, and often do, "put their foot in it" accidentally and say something that doesn't quite come out right. Nervousness makes that happen. Combine that nervousness on the part of the people doing the greeting with defensiveness about a perceived difference on the part of the newcomer, and you have the perfect conditions for misunderstandings.

I have met more than a few people in my life who assume that anything negative that happens to them from other people is because they are ______. I'll bet most other people in here have similar experiences. Instead of automatically blaming any lack of sufficient welcome on being homosexual, maybe one should consider that it could be because one has a grating, regional accent that is almost impossible to understand. Or it could be because one forgot to eat a Tic-Tac. Or maybe the people one met are simply shy around strangers. Some people are shy. It's true. Shy people tend to not be really open to strangers. It's not because of anything specific about the strangers, it just because they're strangers.

I remember back in 1984 when my wife and I visited First Lutheran Church in Washington, PA the first time. We were Pittsburghers, and so we referred to Washington, PA as "Little Washington". When we were asked how long we had been in town, I said, "We just moved to Little Washington." Suddenly, the temperature dropped at least 30 degrees, as we were informed in tones of indignant righteousness, "Don't you mean, Washington, PA?" We didn't know that what everyone else in Southwestern Pennsylvania called Washington, PA was considered an epithet by the locals. Fortunately, we didn't let that stop us from joining and having our daughter baptised there.


Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 43174
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: More on How Bound Consciences Are Being Respected in the ELCA
« Reply #160 on: January 21, 2011, 06:26:55 PM »

However, the question I asked, which you did not address, do congregations have subtle and overt ways of saying, "You are not welcome here"?

Yes, Brian, they do.

OTOH, my experience -- both personally and as a Pastor -- is that often people find themselves in a situation and, because it is different, assume that they are not welcome (any longer) not realizing that 1) they would be very graciously received and/or 2) there are already several people in that congregation that are in a similar position (known to the pastor, or perhaps even the pastor himself) who offer great support the second they realize the situation.  Following that assumption, they exclude themselves.  And then, having rejected the congregation that they never gave a chance (one that perhaps had supported them through other things that would "normally" lead to exclusion), start telling others about how unwelcomed they were.

More specific anecdote is to see who the members talk to before and after worship, and during the fellowship time. Do they gather together with other members, or reach out to the stranger in their midst? One lady told me very clearly that the fellowship time was the only time during the week that she could see her grown child and grandchildren, so they all gathered around a table every Sunday and eschewed visiting with others.

Conversely, I've also had people in congregations who looked for those who appeared to be "newbies" to the congregation and start up a conversation with them. In some congregations, the perception of "friendly" or "unfriendly" depends on whether or not the one or two "friendly" members were present that Sunday.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

hillwilliam

  • Guest
Re: Because the html formatting didn't take somewhere
« Reply #161 on: January 21, 2011, 06:37:19 PM »
Let's try that again:


See document at http://www.eecmy.org/?page=!news&pagenr=2&article=39 and http://www.elct.org/news/2010.04.004.html



Sorry, but I just clicked on them and they worked for me.

Hold on, wait a minute, I went back to my original post and, sure enough, the link didn't work. Yet mysteriously, the quote of my post that you put in your post did work. Color me incredulous.

A Catholic Lutheran

  • Guest
Re: More on How Bound Consciences Are Being Respected in the ELCA
« Reply #162 on: January 21, 2011, 07:12:12 PM »

However, the question I asked, which you did not address, do congregations have subtle and overt ways of saying, "You are not welcome here"?

Yes, Brian, they do.

OTOH, my experience -- both personally and as a Pastor -- is that often people find themselves in a situation and, because it is different, assume that they are not welcome (any longer) not realizing that 1) they would be very graciously received and/or 2) there are already several people in that congregation that are in a similar position (known to the pastor, or perhaps even the pastor himself) who offer great support the second they realize the situation.  Following that assumption, they exclude themselves.  And then, having rejected the congregation that they never gave a chance (one that perhaps had supported them through other things that would "normally" lead to exclusion), start telling others about how unwelcomed they were.

More specific anecdote is to see who the members talk to before and after worship, and during the fellowship time. Do they gather together with other members, or reach out to the stranger in their midst? One lady told me very clearly that the fellowship time was the only time during the week that she could see her grown child and grandchildren, so they all gathered around a table every Sunday and eschewed visiting with others.

Conversely, I've also had people in congregations who looked for those who appeared to be "newbies" to the congregation and start up a conversation with them. In some congregations, the perception of "friendly" or "unfriendly" depends on whether or not the one or two "friendly" members were present that Sunday.

And this has what, exactly, to do with anything?

Going back to lurking.

Pax Christi;
Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS

Steven Tibbetts

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 10213
  • Big tents are for circuses.
    • View Profile
Re: Because the html formatting didn't take somewhere
« Reply #163 on: January 21, 2011, 07:20:50 PM »

Yet mysteriously, the quote of my post that you put in your post did work. Color me incredulous.

The part in black I added.
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
Pastor Zip's Blog

Paula Murray

  • Guest
Re: More on How Bound Consciences Are Being Respected in the ELCA
« Reply #164 on: January 22, 2011, 12:42:00 AM »
Tim just notes: Just an observation having read the last 2-3 pages of posts herein: there seem to be a total absence of the ability to distinguish between Luther's kingdom of the left and kingdom of the right being applied (and misapplied) in many of these contentions.

Once again I note, as I have on other topic streams, that some of the revisionist "interpretation" of Scripture completely overlook the difference between descriptive and proscriptive language (as in describing what exists as opposed to describing what ought to exist) and the differences between genres (for instance, reading poetry as one might a chemistry text).  The best literalists I know are modern day revisionists.  Massively annoying.

Yours in Christ,
Paula Murray