Author Topic: More on How Bound Consciences Are Being Respected in the ELCA  (Read 12189 times)

Dave Benke

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Re: More on How Bound Consciences Are Being Respected in the ELCA
« Reply #60 on: January 19, 2011, 05:56:13 PM »
Regarding the topic of redirecting mission support - this has been going on for decades in ways other than overt protest.  When we ask parishes why they have not increased their Atlantic District mission support (a tithe of which goes up the ladder to the national church), the response is often "Oh, we've increased our support for work outside the parish substantially - but we send X% to missionary Carl, X% to the Lutheran Bible Translators, X% to a woman who went to church here years ago and is now an au pair in Sweden, X% to Orphan Grain Train, X% to The Hour of Power, and we still send you $200 per year."  Thanks.  That's $20 for LCMS Inc.  Your mission dollars at work. 

The Big Boys, the parishes with real numbers in members and bucks, just have their own mission teams in various countries, with or often without the rest of the denomination, coordinating as best they can. 

Anyway, the personalization the intensive hits on local congregations to do their own direct support have already redirected a ton of mission dollars away from whoever's bureaucracy, no matter what pure doctrine or pure hocum they're producing.  And those bucks are not returning to the 100% level. 

Dave Benke

hillwilliam

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Re: More on How Bound Consciences Are Being Respected in the ELCA
« Reply #61 on: January 19, 2011, 06:08:38 PM »

But we digress.

Indeed, Pastor Austin, Lutheran CORE's calls for the ELCA to return to her mission of proclaiming the Gospel have been disregarded in favor of the leadership's long-term digression to "full inclusion" of "sexual minorities."

Peace, love, and Bobby Sherman (sorry, make that Elton John), Shrimp

To see who Lutheran CORE recommends that we support and redirect our benevolence to go to:

http://www.lutherancore.org/menu_call_pages/missions.shtml

and

http://www.lutherancore.org/menu_call_pages/supporters.shtml

The 6,000 member World Mission Prayer League alone has more evangelizing missionaries than the 5 million member ELCA. Those actually doing the mission that Jesus gave us deserves our support.

amos

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Re: More on How Bound Consciences Are Being Respected in the ELCA
« Reply #62 on: January 19, 2011, 06:09:48 PM »
You are right Charles it was a typo, however the "sex call" of the political and ideological motivation in the ELCA does somehow seem to fit.

Second, as you accurately point out "we are obligated to provide mission support to our synods and the ELCA.  

Again your post is an accurate reflection --- More and more it is clear the ELCA equates itself with the same importance and power as the government and the IRS. ---  Do what we say, don't question, jump when we tell you to and just support your synod and Higgins road,  you are obligated to send in your money. --- forget about those other things like what Jesus said.

LutherMan

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Re: More on How Bound Consciences Are Being Respected in the ELCA
« Reply #63 on: January 19, 2011, 06:54:39 PM »
And Paul T. McCain, Lutherman, and that cohort can wring their hands and snicker at what they see happening and pump out pious ejaculations that will make them feel good, but simply add to the pain of others.

Love how you ejaculate and read hearts.

mariemeyer

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Re: More on How Bound Consciences Are Being Respected in the ELCA
« Reply #64 on: January 19, 2011, 07:45:22 PM »
The 6,000 member World Mission Prayer League alone has more evangelizing missionaries than the 5 million member ELCA. Those actually doing the mission that Jesus gave us deserves our support.

Years ago my sainted mother-in-law introduced me to the World Mission Prayer League (WMPL). Since then Bill and I have supported their mission efforts.  I understand that their Board includes members of various Lutheran church bodies including the LCMS. The percentage of donated gifts that goes directly to evangelizing missionaries is much higher than that of any Lutheran church body.

In addition to WMPL I encourage supporting Lutheran Bible Translators and the work of translating Scripture for people groups who do not have any portion of  the Scriptures in their heart language. LBT also promotes literacy training and Scripture usage.

Charles_Austin

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Re: More on How Bound Consciences Are Being Respected in the ELCA
« Reply #65 on: January 19, 2011, 10:45:16 PM »
"Amos" writes:
You are right Charles it was a typo, however the "sex call" of the political and ideological motivation in the ELCA does somehow seem to fit.
I respond:
What typo? I just didn't understand what you were saying about gametes and how they related to the issue at hand.

"Amos" writes:
Second, as you accurately point out "we are obligated to provide mission support to our synods and the ELCA. 
I respond:
Yes, furthering the work of the synod and the ELCA is part of our call and installation rites. We make a promise to do so.

"Amos" writes:
Again your post is an accurate reflection --- More and more it is clear the ELCA equates itself with the same importance and power as the government and the IRS.
I comment:
No. But our obligations to support our synods and the ELCA have been stated since the beginning.

"Amos" writes:
 ---  Do what we say, don't question, jump when we tell you to and just support your synod and Higgins road,  you are obligated to send in your money. --- forget about those other things like what Jesus said.
I comment:
Don't overreact and try to avoid the ridiculous hyperbole. We have lots of chances to question. And I'm still fuzzy on what you mean by "those other things like what Jesus said."

G.Edward

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Re: More on How Bound Consciences Are Being Respected in the ELCA
« Reply #66 on: January 19, 2011, 11:07:11 PM »
I find it fascinating how often you use sexual terminology in your rants, Charles. 

yeah, i thought of that too. would said ejaculations be in the bonds of matrimony?

Not matrimony, but in a publicly accountable lifelong monogamous relationship... ;)  This is the ELCA, you know.

G.Edward

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Re: More on How Bound Consciences Are Being Respected in the ELCA
« Reply #67 on: January 19, 2011, 11:14:03 PM »
The Lutheran is not neutral; it's mission is to further the mission of the ELCA.  CORE's mission is to either change, oppose or otherwise undercut the mission of the ELCA.


Such actions used to be known as "reform" and those who undertook them were called "reformers" in some Lutheran circles not so long ago.  You're sounding a lot more like some guys named Leo and Charles who couldn't understand why their innovations were so far off base...wait, you might be Charles' namesake.  I think Luther had some other names for "Charles" (circumlocutions, you might say) that while wordier were certainly more entertaining, and perhaps more apt.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2011, 11:54:08 PM by Gregory Davidson »

G.Edward

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Re: More on How Bound Consciences Are Being Respected in the ELCA
« Reply #68 on: January 19, 2011, 11:16:19 PM »
Yes, Erma, I too await the dust to settle a bit and hear of this matter as clearly as possible.  My goodness, if the facts are that the Oromo churches were pushed out with such bare stupidity (doesn't the ELCA or someone even have some PR-sense that knows common sense and how things will be read?)... then it is a shameful expulsion if in nothing else-- its methodology.  If the quotation that uses the word "assume" as in assuming the congregation's position is the same as Pr. Buba's and therefore "no reason to keep you in our buidlings," who wrote such stuff?    So far the info reads wildly.   That is the way new breaks, Charles would rightly tell us.   I spent a bit of time with one of the Oromo pastors at the first Columbus gathering (I knew nothing of their history and indeed of the ELCA's mission among these people newer to our country)   and was humbled and deeply impressed with his faith and mission for Christ.    Harvey S. Mozolak

 If (and it is a big "if") Lutheran CORE is spinning this story and is abusing the honor and integrity of the Oromo Lutherans to serve some nefarious, neurotic need to unjustly villify the ELCA, then shame on Lutheran CORE.  
But if the case is basically as it is being reported on the Lutheran CORE blog, then shame on us in the ELCA.  It destroys more than our "pretense" to be respecting those who don't hold to position 4 in the Social Statement on human sexuality.

Such actions reveal who the real post-colonial colonial wanna-bes are...the very same people who cry, "diversity, diversity" and there is no diversity.

G.Edward

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Re: More on How Bound Consciences Are Being Respected in the ELCA
« Reply #69 on: January 19, 2011, 11:21:27 PM »
It is possible that the Oromo Churches that were kicked out of their buildings were ELCA financed. In which case, it was a money issue.

Where is the mercy and compassion from those who spend so much time and energy lecturing the rest of us about the need for mercy and compassion?  Wouldn't mercy and compassion suggest forgiving the money and letting the congregation keep it's property for the greater witness of Christ's mission in the world?

Richard Johnson

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Re: More on How Bound Consciences Are Being Respected in the ELCA
« Reply #70 on: January 19, 2011, 11:37:49 PM »
It is interesting to discover how easily it is for Austin to get you guys to chase red herrings.


Be careful  now. Pr. Austin is an old English major, and he's likely to instruct you that the proper usage is "how easy it is for Austin to get you guys" or "how easily Austin gets you guys" but not your formulation.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

revklak

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Re: More on How Bound Consciences Are Being Respected in the ELCA
« Reply #71 on: January 19, 2011, 11:39:59 PM »
As for giving "cover" to dissident Episcopalians, why should we do anything which suggested that we were taking side in their internal dispute?

Just in case this point gets missed (or maybe I missed it) -- isn't it true that once a group LEAVES to join or form another group, it is no longer an "internal dispute?"  I mean, you can bark all you want about the fact that, in this particular case, the ELCA has an agreement with the ECUSA, but helping out a disenfranchised group is part of the Christian heritage.  And taking sides is very American - like Miller Light -- TASTES GREAT ---- LESS FILLING.


Richard Johnson

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Re: More on How Bound Consciences Are Being Respected in the ELCA
« Reply #72 on: January 19, 2011, 11:43:04 PM »
As for giving "cover" to dissident Episcopalians, why should we do anything which suggested that we were taking side in their internal dispute?

Just in case this point gets missed (or maybe I missed it) -- isn't it true that once a group LEAVES to join or form another group, it is no longer an "internal dispute?"  I mean, you can bark all you want about the fact that, in this particular case, the ELCA has an agreement with the ECUSA, but helping out a disenfranchised group is part of the Christian heritage.  And taking sides is very American - like Miller Light -- TASTES GREAT ---- LESS FILLING.



And of course to be consistent, Charles would also say that if a parish has decided to leave the Episcopal Church, and a remnant wanted to remain in the Episcopal Church, no ELCA congregation should offer them space. Wouldn't want to "take sides in an internal dispute," after all.

Oh, did I get that wrong?  ::)
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

G.Edward

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Re: More on How Bound Consciences Are Being Respected in the ELCA
« Reply #73 on: January 19, 2011, 11:50:19 PM »

It is a no-brainer. We are obligated to provide mission support to our synods and the ELCA. If we do not do that, we are not fulfilling our agreed-upon obligations.
Supposing on April 15, I were to say to the U.S. government: "Oh, I'm sending my money to projects quite consistent with the aims of our government, but not to you, dear IRS. I think the 'official' government spends too much on guns, and I think I can decide better how to fund our democracy. So I'll not be sending you my taxes this year. But don't worry, I'm supporting you anyway."


So are you implying that the ELCA is like unto the IRS?  While the IRS will accept free-will offerings, they do require certain minimum percentages of everyone's income.  I'm not aware of a legal obligation to give money to the ELCA.  The model constitution (2009) section C4.03.g reads:

Quote
Motivate its members to provide financial support for the congregationís ministry and the ministry of other parts of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America.

"And the ministry of other parts of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America" does not indicate the method of transmitting that support.  Sending money directly to the local camp, college, or seminary fulfills its meaning.

Section C6.03.b is also applicable:

Quote
This congregation pledges its financial support and participation in the life and mission of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America.

but also can be fulfilled in a variety of ways, only one of which being sending money to the synod office.

Section C8.04.c applies this logic to individual members of the congregation:

Quote
support the work of this congregation, the synod, and the churchwide organization of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America through contributions of their time, abilities, and financial support as biblical stewards.

Although the additional qualification "as biblical stewards" places a special responsibility upon individual members that their actions ultimately aim to please their Lord and Master - Jesus Christ - not the ELCA.

Section C9.03.c.4 specifies similar expectations for pastors:

Quote
 endeavor to increase the support given by the congregation to the work of the churchwide organization of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) and of the   (insert name of synod)   Synod of the ELCA.

As long as the pastor "endeavors to increase the support" then the pastor has fulfilled their obligation.  Sometimes these things just don't work out the way we'd hoped.

Section C12.04.h sets a much higher standard for the congregation council:

Quote
To emphasize partnership with the synod and churchwide organization of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America as well as cooperation with other congregations, both Lutheran and non-Lutheran, subject to established policies of the synod and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America.

for emphasizing partnership and cooperation.  Nothing about a required amount, unlike the IRS.

Section 12.05.e does actually mention a specific action required of the congregation council:

Quote
The Congregation Council shall ascertain that the financial affairs of this congregation are being conducted efficiently, giving particular attention to the prompt payment of all obligations and to the regular forwarding of benevolence monies to the synodical treasurer.

but no particular amount or percentage, unlike the IRS and most federal, state, and local tax codes.

As far as I'm aware the ELCA has never had the legal power to compel any congregation to do or give anything to anyone.  The IRS analogy does not hold, unless you are dreaming of another world.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2011, 11:58:30 PM by Gregory Davidson »

G.Edward

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Re: More on How Bound Consciences Are Being Respected in the ELCA
« Reply #74 on: January 19, 2011, 11:52:43 PM »

The 6,000 member World Mission Prayer League alone has more evangelizing missionaries than the 5 million member ELCA. Those actually doing the mission that Jesus gave us deserves our support.


Go WMPL!  ;D