Author Topic: More on How Bound Consciences Are Being Respected in the ELCA  (Read 12193 times)

MaddogLutheran

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Re: More on How Bound Consciences Are Being Respected in the ELCA
« Reply #120 on: January 21, 2011, 01:56:06 PM »
You don't think that church have subtle and even overt ways of telling people, "You are not welcome here"? A gay couple were told by an ELCA pastor that they were not welcomed in his church. There are times when looks tell folks that they are not really welcomed at this church -- or that their attire is not appropriate or that those tattoos and/or piercing make them unwelcome.
Have any of the CWA09 actions changed anything for the persons in your example?  Nothing prohibits the ELCA pastor from saying the gay couple is not welcome in his church.  In fact, that pastor should have his bound conscience protected by CWA09 actions, since we are not of one mind about how Scripture should be applied, at least to make a coherent social statement.  Your example is poorly offered, at any rate, because you don't provide any context for any of us to understand whether his supposed action has justification.  But then, I've had to put up with my local NPR station's justification by anecdote this morning, so why should the Forum be any different, today or any day.   :P  

Sterling Spatz
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 01:58:48 PM by MaddogLutheran »
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G.Edward

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Re: More on How Bound Consciences Are Being Respected in the ELCA
« Reply #121 on: January 21, 2011, 01:58:20 PM »
Exactly what was it prior to 1991 that was "unwelcoming" to homosexuals?  Were there ELCA churches with big signs on their doors saying "Gay people not allowed" ??  (Because I never saw one..)

I've always been confused why it is that unless someone explicitly says, "We welcome [whoever]" that "someone" is assumed to be explicitly "not welcoming [whoever]."  

And let the record show that for a "church" that professes to "welcome all people", I feel extraordinarily and explicitly "unwelcomed" by the majority of our hierarchy.  So let's the can the conversation about who's welcome where, mkay?

I've always said, "If you need a sign (or rule, or quota, or resolution, etc.) to show you are welcoming, then you probably have much more significant issues to deal with first."  Someplace that is welcoming to all that really lives it needs no sign.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: More on How Bound Consciences Are Being Respected in the ELCA
« Reply #122 on: January 21, 2011, 01:59:34 PM »
You don't think that church have subtle and even overt ways of telling people, "You are not welcome here"? A gay couple were told by an ELCA pastor that they were not welcomed in his church. There are times when looks tell folks that they are not really welcomed at this church -- or that their attire is not appropriate or that those tattoos and/or piercing make them unwelcome.
Have any of the CWA09 actions changed anything for the persons in your example?  Nothing prohibits the ELCA pastor from saying the gay couple is not welcome in his church.  In fact, that pastor should have his bound conscience protected by CWA09 actions, since we are not of one mind about how Scripture should be applied, at least to make a coherent social statement.  Your example is poorly offered, at any rate, because you don't provide any context for any of us to understand whether his supposed action has justification.  But then, I've had to put up with my local NPR stations justification by anecdote this morning, so why should the Forum be any different, today or any day.   :P 

No, the CWA decisions going back to 1991 are not likely to change the attitude of pastors who are opposed to homosexuals -- especially those in a relationship -- being welcomed in their congregations.

However, the question I asked, which you did not address, do congregations have subtle and overt ways of saying, "You are not welcome here"?
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

G.Edward

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Re: More on How Bound Consciences Are Being Respected in the ELCA
« Reply #123 on: January 21, 2011, 02:02:13 PM »
Exactly what was it prior to 1991 that was "unwelcoming" to homosexuals?  Were there ELCA churches with big signs on their doors saying "Gay people not allowed" ??  (Because I never saw one..)

I've always been confused why it is that unless someone explicitly says, "We welcome [whoever]" that "someone" is assumed to be explicitly "not welcoming [whoever]."  

And let the record show that for a "church" that professes to "welcome all people", I feel extraordinarily and explicitly "unwelcomed" by the majority of our hierarchy.  So let's the can the conversation about who's welcome where, may?

You don't think that church have subtle and even overt ways of telling people, "You are not welcome here"? A gay couple were told by an ELCA pastor that they were not welcomed in his church. There are times when looks tell folks that they are not really welcomed at this church -- or that their attire is not appropriate or that those tattoos and/or piercing make them unwelcome.

And you are naive enough to believe in and support the idea that some policy, some vote will change that?

G.Edward

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Re: More on How Bound Consciences Are Being Respected in the ELCA
« Reply #124 on: January 21, 2011, 02:04:02 PM »
-- that you never have sex with someone to whom you are attracted."

I rather suspect that there are a lot of divorcées that got that way through thinking thoughts such as that.   "I deserve the privilege of having sex with someone I find attractive, bye bye old and ugly spouse, I'm off to greener pastures!"

Y'mean like when David married Bathsheba? Granted committing adultery with her was wrong. Plotting to have her husband killed was wrong; but there was nothing wrong about marrying a second or third or whatever wife who was available for marriage.

The marriage practices of Ancient Jewish Monarchs are irrelevant and you know it, as one who is irrelevant himself all the time.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: More on How Bound Consciences Are Being Respected in the ELCA
« Reply #125 on: January 21, 2011, 02:04:15 PM »
Exactly what was it prior to 1991 that was "unwelcoming" to homosexuals?  Were there ELCA churches with big signs on their doors saying "Gay people not allowed" ??  (Because I never saw one..)

I've always been confused why it is that unless someone explicitly says, "We welcome [whoever]" that "someone" is assumed to be explicitly "not welcoming [whoever]."  

And let the record show that for a "church" that professes to "welcome all people", I feel extraordinarily and explicitly "unwelcomed" by the majority of our hierarchy.  So let's the can the conversation about who's welcome where, mkay?

I've always said, "If you need a sign (or rule, or quota, or resolution, etc.) to show you are welcoming, then you probably have much more significant issues to deal with first."  Someplace that is welcoming to all that really lives it needs no sign.

Nearly all of our congregations think that they are welcoming, because they don't talk to the visitors who came once and never returned. They may not even ask some of the newer members if they felt welcomed. When I brought up the unwelcoming-ness of a congregation at a council meeting, they asked a fairly new member of the congregation (less than 5 years) who was on the council. The were shocked when he said that they did not feel welcomed when they first visited the congregation. (He and his wife were stubborn enough to keep coming inspire of the lack of welcome from the congregation.)

To use phrases that are not my own; many congregations who think they are friendly, are actually a congregations of friends. They think they are friendly because every week they gather with their friends and socialize with them and ignore visitors.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

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Re: More on How Bound Consciences Are Being Respected in the ELCA
« Reply #126 on: January 21, 2011, 02:05:14 PM »
-- that you never have sex with someone to whom you are attracted."

I rather suspect that there are a lot of divorcées that got that way through thinking thoughts such as that.   "I deserve the privilege of having sex with someone I find attractive, bye bye old and ugly spouse, I'm off to greener pastures!"

Y'mean like when David married Bathsheba? Granted committing adultery with her was wrong. Plotting to have her husband killed was wrong; but there was nothing wrong about marrying a second or third or whatever wife who was available for marriage.

The marriage practices of Ancient Jewish Monarchs are irrelevant and you know it, as one who is irrelevant himself all the time.

Those ancient practices of Jewish monarchs are part of the biblical witness about appropriate sexual relationships -- many of which our culture has not adopted.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

iowakatie1981

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Re: More on How Bound Consciences Are Being Respected in the ELCA
« Reply #127 on: January 21, 2011, 02:06:32 PM »
You don't think that church have subtle and even overt ways of telling people, "You are not welcome here"? A gay couple were told by an ELCA pastor that they were not welcomed in his church. There are times when looks tell folks that they are not really welcomed at this church -- or that their attire is not appropriate or that those tattoos and/or piercing make them unwelcome.
Have any of the CWA09 actions changed anything for the persons in your example?  Nothing prohibits the ELCA pastor from saying the gay couple is not welcome in his church.  In fact, that pastor should have his bound conscience protected by CWA09 actions, since we are not of one mind about how Scripture should be applied, at least to make a coherent social statement.  Your example is poorly offered, at any rate, because you don't provide any context for any of us to understand whether his supposed action has justification.  But then, I've had to put up with my local NPR stations justification by anecdote this morning, so why should the Forum be any different, today or any day.   :P 

No, the CWA decisions going back to 1991 are not likely to change the attitude of pastors who are opposed to homosexuals -- especially those in a relationship -- being welcomed in their congregations.

However, the question I asked, which you did not address, do congregations have subtle and overt ways of saying, "You are not welcome here"?

You don't think that church have subtle and even overt ways of telling people, "You are not welcome here"? A gay couple were told by an ELCA pastor that they were not welcomed in his church. There are times when looks tell folks that they are not really welcomed at this church -- or that their attire is not appropriate or that those tattoos and/or piercing make them unwelcome.
Have any of the CWA09 actions changed anything for the persons in your example?  Nothing prohibits the ELCA pastor from saying the gay couple is not welcome in his church.  In fact, that pastor should have his bound conscience protected by CWA09 actions, since we are not of one mind about how Scripture should be applied, at least to make a coherent social statement.  Your example is poorly offered, at any rate, because you don't provide any context for any of us to understand whether his supposed action has justification.  But then, I've had to put up with my local NPR stations justification by anecdote this morning, so why should the Forum be any different, today or any day.   :P 

No, the CWA decisions going back to 1991 are not likely to change the attitude of pastors who are opposed to homosexuals -- especially those in a relationship -- being welcomed in their congregations.

However, the question I asked, which you did not address, do congregations have subtle and overt ways of saying, "You are not welcome here"?

Sure, like when during the intercessory prayers on Pentecost, the pastor prays that "the Holy Spirit would come down to all those conservatives and show them that war is not the answer."

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: More on How Bound Consciences Are Being Respected in the ELCA
« Reply #128 on: January 21, 2011, 02:06:49 PM »
Exactly what was it prior to 1991 that was "unwelcoming" to homosexuals?  Were there ELCA churches with big signs on their doors saying "Gay people not allowed" ??  (Because I never saw one..)

I've always been confused why it is that unless someone explicitly says, "We welcome [whoever]" that "someone" is assumed to be explicitly "not welcoming [whoever]."  

And let the record show that for a "church" that professes to "welcome all people", I feel extraordinarily and explicitly "unwelcomed" by the majority of our hierarchy.  So let's the can the conversation about who's welcome where, may?

You don't think that church have subtle and even overt ways of telling people, "You are not welcome here"? A gay couple were told by an ELCA pastor that they were not welcomed in his church. There are times when looks tell folks that they are not really welcomed at this church -- or that their attire is not appropriate or that those tattoos and/or piercing make them unwelcome.

And you are naive enough to believe in and support the idea that some policy, some vote will change that?

No! But exposing the sin may lead to repentance and new ways of thinking and acting. I have seen congregations change their behaviors when they realize how unwelcoming they've become towards visitors.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

G.Edward

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Re: More on How Bound Consciences Are Being Respected in the ELCA
« Reply #129 on: January 21, 2011, 02:08:09 PM »
-- that you never have sex with someone to whom you are attracted."

I rather suspect that there are a lot of divorcées that got that way through thinking thoughts such as that.   "I deserve the privilege of having sex with someone I find attractive, bye bye old and ugly spouse, I'm off to greener pastures!"

Y'mean like when David married Bathsheba? Granted committing adultery with her was wrong. Plotting to have her husband killed was wrong; but there was nothing wrong about marrying a second or third or whatever wife who was available for marriage.

The marriage practices of Ancient Jewish Monarchs are irrelevant and you know it, as one who is irrelevant himself all the time.

Those ancient practices of Jewish monarchs are part of the biblical witness about appropriate sexual relationships -- many of which our culture has not adopted.

I'll be looking for your resolution that the ELCA write a social statement in support of publicly-accountable, life-long, polygamous relationships.  I'm sure you are capable of drafting it and pitching it.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: More on How Bound Consciences Are Being Respected in the ELCA
« Reply #130 on: January 21, 2011, 02:10:37 PM »
Sure, like when during the intercessory prayers on Pentecost, the pastor prays that "the Holy Spirit would come down to all those conservatives and show them that war is not the answer."

What question do conservatives think that war answers?

I don't have past Sundays and Seasons with me, but a petition for Pentecost 2011 is: "Come, Holy Spirit, into the nations of the world. Rain down your peace onto nations at war or in crisis (especially)."

Do you have objections to that? If so, what are they?
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

MaddogLutheran

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Re: More on How Bound Consciences Are Being Respected in the ELCA
« Reply #131 on: January 21, 2011, 02:12:39 PM »
You don't think that church have subtle and even overt ways of telling people, "You are not welcome here"? A gay couple were told by an ELCA pastor that they were not welcomed in his church. There are times when looks tell folks that they are not really welcomed at this church -- or that their attire is not appropriate or that those tattoos and/or piercing make them unwelcome.
Have any of the CWA09 actions changed anything for the persons in your example?  Nothing prohibits the ELCA pastor from saying the gay couple is not welcome in his church.  In fact, that pastor should have his bound conscience protected by CWA09 actions, since we are not of one mind about how Scripture should be applied, at least to make a coherent social statement.  Your example is poorly offered, at any rate, because you don't provide any context for any of us to understand whether his supposed action has justification.  But then, I've had to put up with my local NPR stations justification by anecdote this morning, so why should the Forum be any different, today or any day.   :P 

No, the CWA decisions going back to 1991 are not likely to change the attitude of pastors who are opposed to homosexuals -- especially those in a relationship -- being welcomed in their congregations.

However, the question I asked, which you did not address, do congregations have subtle and overt ways of saying, "You are not welcome here"?
I'm sorry, your anecdote was a distraction from your question (since it did not support it).  The answer to your question is:  yes, of course there are, both subtle and overt.  Your specific anecdote about a gay couple is not coterminous with homosexuals, but it is a nice attempt to make the traditionalist position appear mean-spirited.  But it goes to who gets to define "welcoming" (and why I commented the way I did about the Playboy philosophy.)  Some people, of which Erik Doughty is representative , would define it as the kitchen sink:  unless I get everything I want, I'm won't feel welcome.  The problem with that, as I've referred to time and again, is that there is long-standing church teaching, based in Scripture, which says that's simply not possible.  And so we go round and round.

And for the record, I think there exist better pastoral approaches than to abruptly rebuff a gay couple from fellowship in a congregation.  But like I said, without the whole story of your anecdote, I cannot comment further.  And no, I'm not asking for the whole story.

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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: More on How Bound Consciences Are Being Respected in the ELCA
« Reply #132 on: January 21, 2011, 02:14:58 PM »
-- that you never have sex with someone to whom you are attracted."

I rather suspect that there are a lot of divorcées that got that way through thinking thoughts such as that.   "I deserve the privilege of having sex with someone I find attractive, bye bye old and ugly spouse, I'm off to greener pastures!"

Y'mean like when David married Bathsheba? Granted committing adultery with her was wrong. Plotting to have her husband killed was wrong; but there was nothing wrong about marrying a second or third or whatever wife who was available for marriage.

The marriage practices of Ancient Jewish Monarchs are irrelevant and you know it, as one who is irrelevant himself all the time.

Those ancient practices of Jewish monarchs are part of the biblical witness about appropriate sexual relationships -- many of which our culture has not adopted.

I'll be looking for your resolution that the ELCA write a social statement in support of publicly-accountable, life-long, polygamous relationships.  I'm sure you are capable of drafting it and pitching it.

As I wrote earlier, societies determine what are the appropriate relationships for sexual behavior. Christians, in general, and the U.S. have decided that polygamous relationships are not appropriate, in contrast to what we read in the Old Testament. Many Christians today have decided that marriages after a divorce are appropriate, in contrast to what the early Christians believed. There are Christians today who see a couple who live together who have already committed to marry each other as appropriate, in contrast to what Christians thought 30 or 50 years ago.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

MaddogLutheran

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Re: More on How Bound Consciences Are Being Respected in the ELCA
« Reply #133 on: January 21, 2011, 02:15:44 PM »
And you are naive enough to believe in and support the idea that some policy, some vote will change that?
No! But exposing the sin may lead to repentance and new ways of thinking and acting. I have seen congregations change their behaviors when they realize how unwelcoming they've become towards visitors.
Maybe something similar might apply to your gay couple "rejected" by the ELCA pastor!   :o
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G.Edward

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Re: More on How Bound Consciences Are Being Respected in the ELCA
« Reply #134 on: January 21, 2011, 02:23:56 PM »
-- that you never have sex with someone to whom you are attracted."

I rather suspect that there are a lot of divorcées that got that way through thinking thoughts such as that.   "I deserve the privilege of having sex with someone I find attractive, bye bye old and ugly spouse, I'm off to greener pastures!"

Y'mean like when David married Bathsheba? Granted committing adultery with her was wrong. Plotting to have her husband killed was wrong; but there was nothing wrong about marrying a second or third or whatever wife who was available for marriage.

The marriage practices of Ancient Jewish Monarchs are irrelevant and you know it, as one who is irrelevant himself all the time.

Those ancient practices of Jewish monarchs are part of the biblical witness about appropriate sexual relationships -- many of which our culture has not adopted.

I'll be looking for your resolution that the ELCA write a social statement in support of publicly-accountable, life-long, polygamous relationships.  I'm sure you are capable of drafting it and pitching it.

As I wrote earlier, societies determine what are the appropriate relationships for sexual behavior. Christians, in general, and the U.S. have decided that polygamous relationships are not appropriate, in contrast to what we read in the Old Testament. Many Christians today have decided that marriages after a divorce are appropriate, in contrast to what the early Christians believed. There are Christians today who see a couple who live together who have already committed to marry each other as appropriate, in contrast to what Christians thought 30 or 50 years ago.

And now some people in the ELCA and other present day gatherings of Christians (followers of Jesus Christ) are picking and choosing which pieces of that witness they wish to follow.  Jesus in the Gospels, and the rest of the New Testament, is the Christian reflection on and application of the Jewish bible, the Christian Old Testament.  Societies determine all kinds of things contrary to the consistent Biblical witness and people in those societies suffer because of those choices.  Nothing new here.  And as far as what makes a marriage, Luther wrote 500 years ago about the commitment between a man and a woman before God making a marriage.  For that very reason worship books from the early 20th century and before called the marriage service "The Solemnization of Marriage".
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 02:25:31 PM by Gregory Davidson »