Author Topic: Pr. Otten to Speak at CU-W  (Read 34125 times)

pr dtp

  • Guest
Re: Pr. Otten to Speak at CU-W
« Reply #195 on: January 13, 2011, 08:32:08 PM »
Are those pointing ot the abortion issue are simply trying to justify Otten, or throw a red herring in the middle of the road.

Abortion is wrong - yes.

Denying genocide is wrong - yes

I could toss in another one - about the pharmeceutical companies that do business in the Sudan, or Oil Companies doing business in Indonesia - where Chrstians are killed in the millions.  Or the recents stats about Christians in Iraq since we invaded.

Not one of them is a right situation.

And anyone who defends any of these situations loses credibility quick.  How can I trust a man who purports himself as a historical source, wen he denies clear history?  Or when the double standards so flow from his paper, why should I trust any of his judgments.  I don't - and CN is round filed immediately. 

Letting college students hear him speak?  That would be okay, if the Q&A time gives equal time to those would challenge his reliability.


kls

  • Guest
Re: Pr. Otten to Speak at CU-W
« Reply #196 on: January 13, 2011, 08:34:43 PM »
Are those pointing ot the abortion issue are simply trying to justify Otten, or throw a red herring in the middle of the road.

No red herring, just helping good old Charles see that his attempt at silencing one denier should be taken in the same way as some of us would wish to silence other deniers.  That's all.  I admit to thread drift in order to make this point.

Daniel L. Gard

  • Guest
Re: Pr. Otten to Speak at CU-W
« Reply #197 on: January 13, 2011, 08:38:59 PM »
Can't we all just get along? How about a big group hug?

kls

  • Guest
Re: Pr. Otten to Speak at CU-W
« Reply #198 on: January 13, 2011, 08:40:08 PM »
Can't we all just get along? How about a big group hug?

Not after what he just said about me (I think me any way) on the football thread!   ;)  I agree.  Hugs to you all . . .

Daniel L. Gard

  • Guest
Re: Pr. Otten to Speak at CU-W
« Reply #199 on: January 13, 2011, 08:44:45 PM »
Peace out!

SteveS

  • Guest
Re: Pr. Otten to Speak at CU-W
« Reply #200 on: January 13, 2011, 09:40:19 PM »
For the abortion comparison to be more equivalent the scenario would be for someone to deny that abortions take place.  Or that only thousands take place.  Or pick your number.  To deny the Holocaust is two things:  1) extremely hurtful to those directly and indirectly affected by it and 2) to show a total denial of reality. 

The issue is that there is a denial that death of a human being takes place in abortion or that we have a right to take a life for a reason of our choosing.  I'm sure Hitler's followers perhaps argued that the Jews were less than human, too, and thus had the right to take the lives they did.  Using your words, if I may:  Denying this is extremely hurtful to the women who experienced it and even more so to the babies who did directly (and to their families who are indirectly affected by it), and denying either shows a total denial of reality.

I do appreciate that you commented and do not want to sound dismissive of your comments, but the parallel is so clearly there to many people.  I am one of them, obviously.


I believe that abortion is the taking of a life and a grave sin.  I want to be clear about that.  I was in no way attempting to justifying abortion, which I do not agree with.  I was simply trying to explain my reasoning why I have no patience for anything Pr. Otten has to say if he really believes the Holocaust did not happen.

Robert Johnson

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 733
    • View Profile
Re: Pr. Otten to Speak at CU-W
« Reply #201 on: January 13, 2011, 10:36:33 PM »
For me, at least, part of the issue is the total loss of touch with reality.  My understanding is that Eisenhower ordered tons of pictures taken, and ordered our troops and locals tour the camps for precisely this reason -- that he anticipated that some would deny that such a thing could have and did take place.

This breaks me out of lurking mode.  My uncle landed in France and fought eastward into Germany through VE day.  There aren't all that many of those guys left now, but virtually all of them were eyewitnesses to one aspect or another of the Holocaust even if they weren't the troops who liberated camps.  My uncle would use very unpleasant language to describe anybody who denies what he saw with his own eyes. The absurdity of contradicting what was seen by thousands of people, some still alive, means that I would not be interested in Otten's opinion on anything.

Richard Johnson

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 10440
  • Create in me a clean heart, O God.
    • View Profile
Re: Pr. Otten to Speak at CU-W
« Reply #202 on: January 13, 2011, 11:44:11 PM »


Otten challenges the numbers.  Yes, he has a quote that says the holocaust is a hoax.  But he also prints that 1.5 million people may have died. 

Jeremy

Actually, he says "The best evidence indicates that no more than a million, or perhaps a million and a half, European Jews perished from all causes during the war years. This, of course, would include those who died in battle, or of disease.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

jpetty

  • Guest
Re: Pr. Otten to Speak at CU-W
« Reply #203 on: January 14, 2011, 12:00:23 AM »
Should Martin Luther be given a platform at Lutheran Universities? He said some fairly brutal and embarrassing things about Jews.

Also, I deleted a bunch of posts that made points primarily about the other posters, so if the flow seems a bit disjointed, that is why.

Hey, you missed the one where jpetty insulted Nick by calling him a liberal.  ;)  Thanks for keeping us in line.  I'm guilty as charged.

Hey, it was a compliment!

I thought I detected a flicker of human kindness in the man and wanted to give him credit!   :)

pr dtp

  • Guest
Re: Pr. Otten to Speak at CU-W
« Reply #204 on: January 14, 2011, 01:17:17 AM »
Are those pointing ot the abortion issue are simply trying to justify Otten, or throw a red herring in the middle of the road.

Wow. Talk about a false dichotomy.

Perhaps those bringing up the abortion issue simply wish to point out that many different standards may be applied to consider a speaker as unfit to address others.

I know there have been many who believe that Mayor Rudy Guiliani and President William Clinton should never be invited to speak because they are philanderers.

I have no problem with anyone refusing to invite Rev. Otten to speak due to the opinions he has expressed on the Holocaust.  Or because he often violates the Eighth Commandment in his newspaper. I have no problem with CS - St. Louis refusing to permit him to speak on their campus because he has never been certified for ministry in the LCMS.

And I also have no problem with CU - Wisconsin inviting him to speak on Seminex which is an issue which he has deep and intimate knowledge.

The insolence of others demanding that people adhere to their standards of who may or may not be invited to speak is astounding.

Mike


Mike,

One of the differences with Clinton is he asked for forgiveness and was given absolution, and gave three Christian Leaders (Hybels and Campolo were two, I forget the third) the responsibility and authority to hold him accountable.

As to the reason the Sem didn't let him speak, was it because of his not getting rostered, or was it for the causes that resulted in him not getting rostered?  

tcs

  • Guest
Re: Pr. Otten to Speak at CU-W
« Reply #205 on: January 14, 2011, 02:20:47 AM »
In fact, Otten has attacked my future father-in-law because of his Seminex background and he's a solid orthodox Lutheran pastor.

So you believe a Seminex background is solid orthodox Lutheran? 

tcs

  • Guest
Re: Pr. Otten to Speak at CU-W
« Reply #206 on: January 14, 2011, 04:05:02 AM »
To Daniel Gard, RD Preus, Karl Hess, Paul McCain, Timothy Schenks and Peter Speckhard:

Herman Otten has in the past and continues to regard LCMS Bible studies, CTCR reports and CPH publications regarding the service of women in the church true expositions of Scripture.  Is it correct to say that this is one issue with which you agree with Herman Otten?

I could regard them as true expositions of Scripture when they agree with Scripture.  The only true exposition of Scripture that I acknowledge is the Book of Concord. 

What do you consider an "LCMS" Bible study?  "The Lutheran Difference" series from CPH is pretty good and is now being released together in a textbook format. Or do you mean studies such as the Circuit Counselor Bible studies on the LCMS website?

No, I cannot agree with Pr. Otten because the CTCR's last four reports on women in the church have too many minority and dissenting opinions to take them seriously. 

I have not read President Harrison's and Dr. Pless' CPH book about women pastors.  However, I would recommend the Luther Academy book "Church and Ministry Today" which includes Dr. Weinrich's article "It is Not Given to Women to Teach."

kls

  • Guest
Re: Pr. Otten to Speak at CU-W
« Reply #207 on: January 14, 2011, 08:03:19 AM »
Hey, it was a compliment!

I thought I detected a flicker of human kindness in the man and wanted to give him credit!   :)

I figured as much and was only kidding.

kls

  • Guest
Re: Pr. Otten to Speak at CU-W
« Reply #208 on: January 14, 2011, 08:07:53 AM »
I have not read President Harrison's and Dr. Pless' CPH book about women pastors.

I'm working on this one now; it's a good read.  I had no idea someone like me who already doesn't subscribe to women's ordination would have much to glean from it.  Boy was I wrong.  Thread drift, I know . . .

Scott6

  • Guest
Re: Pr. Otten to Speak at CU-W
« Reply #209 on: January 14, 2011, 08:13:01 AM »
I could regard them as true expositions of Scripture when they agree with Scripture.  The only true exposition of Scripture that I acknowledge is the Book of Concord. 

Do you really mean that there is no true exposition of Scripture outside the BoC?  ???