Author Topic: The LORD Doing New Things in Isaiah  (Read 474 times)

Rev. Edward Engelbrecht

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The LORD Doing New Things in Isaiah
« on: December 21, 2022, 10:26:45 PM »
Picking up from a previous exchange, the Lord doing new things is a theme that arises in Isaiah. I think the references mentioned earlier were to Isaiah 48 and 65 but I believe there are others. My sense is that these passages describe events fulfilled in the return from exile, the new covenant, and the end times. I don't think they can justifiably be cited as promises of new doctrines that contradict revealed doctrine in Scripture.
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Charles Austin

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Re: The LORD Doing New Things in Isaiah
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2022, 10:44:09 PM »
Pastor Engebretson:
I don't think they can justifiably be cited as promises of new doctrines that contradict revealed doctrine in Scripture.

Me:
Neither can they be interpreted as validating everything believed to be factual in scriptural times.
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Terry W Culler

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Re: The LORD Doing New Things in Isaiah
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2022, 07:37:00 AM »
Picking up from a previous exchange, the Lord doing new things is a theme that arises in Isaiah. I think the references mentioned earlier were to Isaiah 48 and 65 but I believe there are others. My sense is that these passages describe events fulfilled in the return from exile, the new covenant, and the end times. I don't think they can justifiably be cited as promises of new doctrines that contradict revealed doctrine in Scripture.


A few years ago the UCC promoted something called God is Still Speaking.  It was a false flag designed to get people to accept the changes they wanted to make in doctrine.  They too misused the Word of God for their own ends.  I don't know if they fooled anyone.
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Re: The LORD Doing New Things in Isaiah
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2022, 07:49:18 AM »
Picking up from a previous exchange, the Lord doing new things is a theme that arises in Isaiah. I think the references mentioned earlier were to Isaiah 48 and 65 but I believe there are others. My sense is that these passages describe events fulfilled in the return from exile, the new covenant, and the end times. I don't think they can justifiably be cited as promises of new doctrines that contradict revealed doctrine in Scripture.

A few years ago the UCC promoted something called God is Still Speaking.  It was a false flag designed to get people to accept the changes they wanted to make in doctrine.  They too misused the Word of God for their own ends.  I don't know if they fooled anyone.

An ELCA church in Walker, MN had that phrase on a large outdoor sign for several years.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2022, 10:58:43 AM by Donald_Kirchner »
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D. Engebretson

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Re: The LORD Doing New Things in Isaiah
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2022, 08:42:47 AM »
Pastor Engebretson:
I don't think they can justifiably be cited as promises of new doctrines that contradict revealed doctrine in Scripture.

Me:
Neither can they be interpreted as validating everything believed to be factual in scriptural times.

I was a bit surprised to see myself quoted as I haven't been posting lately.  I know Engebretson and Engelbrecht are kind of close in spelling, but wanted to clarify that it was Pastor Engelbrecht who should be credited with the above words. 
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Re: The LORD Doing New Things in Isaiah
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2022, 09:23:29 AM »
Picking up from a previous exchange, the Lord doing new things is a theme that arises in Isaiah. I think the references mentioned earlier were to Isaiah 48 and 65 but I believe there are others. My sense is that these passages describe events fulfilled in the return from exile, the new covenant, and the end times. I don't think they can justifiably be cited as promises of new doctrines that contradict revealed doctrine in Scripture.


A few years ago the UCC promoted something called God is Still Speaking.  It was a false flag designed to get people to accept the changes they wanted to make in doctrine.  They too misused the Word of God for their own ends.  I don't know if they fooled anyone.

Yes, I assume this is where we were going to end up in the now deleted conversation if it had been allowed to continue.  More gnosticism by those claiming they can identify these new things.  I don't think they can claim the mantle of a contemporary prophet speaking authoritatively for God now.

In the context of things like the original Isaiah prophecy, the best way to understand the "new things" is the coming of Jesus, as recorded in the NT, AKA the Word of God.  Not everything one can imagine that has happened after the ascension.   Of course that doesn't mean that God pleasing new things don't continue to occur.  They're not just what is specifically being referenced by the Isaiah prophecy.

PS:  the OT records many bad historical occurrences (lying, adultery, murder, fraud, war etc) that are written down in the "Word of God", but it does not make them positively instructive for us today.  Carelessly lumping such things in as the "Word of God" is bad faith argumentation for any one so inclined.  Likewise deuteronic law given to the Hebrews but not applicable to Christians because we're not Jews.  I'm planning on enjoying shellfish on Christmas Eve.
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peter_speckhard

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Re: The LORD Doing New Things in Isaiah
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2022, 09:27:57 AM »
I think it is highly dangerous to say that God is speaking today in any way other than via the Word and Sacraments by which the Holy Spirit directs people to Christ. All preaching that is truly proclamation of God's Word condemns the Old Adam and points to Christ crucified with a goal of creating or strengthening faith in Jesus Christ. Does that mean God does nothing else? Of course not. But interpretations of events and developments in the world are private judgments, not the voice of God. Is God doing a new thing by warming the globe and potentially bringing the green back to Greenland? Some might say yes. Others might say no, that is an evil mankind is doing contrary to God's will. How will anyone know? Is space exploration an example of God doing a new thing or simply mankind doing the same old thing with newer technology? Was the nuclear bomb God's judgment on Japan? Could be, but there is no way of really knowing, and I wouldn't really trust a preacher who made a claim to know one way or the other.


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Re: The LORD Doing New Things in Isaiah
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2022, 09:40:07 AM »
I have on occasion mused that ISIS or COVID might be signs of God's judgment on America or the world in general, but if asked, I always hasten to add that I am neither a prophet nor the son of a prophet.  I am in fact the son of a hardware store manager.

As one of my seminary profs said, don't call yourself a prophet or call your preaching prophetic unless you can say "Thus says the Lord."  Otherwise it's just your opinion.  Which may be valid, but does not have the divine imprimatur.
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Rev. Edward Engelbrecht

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Re: The LORD Doing New Things in Isaiah
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2022, 12:03:12 PM »
I would leave space for Jesus' admonition to observe the signs of the times, which typically speaks warning to the repentant (Mt 16:3--4). I would also leave space for the Lord guiding persons praying for wisdom (James 1:5) in decision making such as considering a call to a congregation. I don't mean they should seek audibles from heaven or specific signs. But I do think the Lord guides our deliberation as we pray. There are examples of Him providing direct counsel to the apostles at times (Acts 12:7; 27:23--24, etc.) so I would never say the Lord could not or would not do the same today if He chose to.
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peter_speckhard

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Re: The LORD Doing New Things in Isaiah
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2022, 12:39:37 PM »
I would leave space for Jesus' admonition to observe the signs of the times, which typically speaks warning to the repentant (Mt 16:3--4). I would also leave space for the Lord guiding persons praying for wisdom (James 1:5) in decision making such as considering a call to a congregation. I don't mean they should seek audibles from heaven or specific signs. But I do think the Lord guides our deliberation as we pray. There are examples of Him providing direct counsel to the apostles at times (Acts 12:7; 27:23--24, etc.) so I would never say the Lord could not or would not do the same today if He chose to.
God hearing prayer, providing guidance, and calling to repentance are not instances of Him doing a new thing. He has always done those things.

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Re: The LORD Doing New Things in Isaiah
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2022, 01:05:00 PM »
Picking up from a previous exchange, the Lord doing new things is a theme that arises in Isaiah. I think the references mentioned earlier were to Isaiah 48 and 65 but I believe there are others. My sense is that these passages describe events fulfilled in the return from exile, the new covenant, and the end times. I don't think they can justifiably be cited as promises of new doctrines that contradict revealed doctrine in Scripture.

And yet others look at Isaiah 7:14 as point directly to the birth of Christ, rather than an event fulfilled during the time of Ahaz.

I agree that within the context of Isaiah, the "new thing" was the return from exile. At the same time, Revelation picks up the theme with the promise of a new heaven and a new earth (Is 65:17; 66:22; Rev 21:1).

Greek has two words for "new:" καινός & νέος. They can be synonyms. Both refer to something that has existed for a relatively short time. In some contexts there can be different nuances (both are used in Matthew 9:17; Mark 2:22; Luke 5;36-38). καινός can carry the sense of something that is novel and different (Lowe & Nida) or "unknown, strange, remarkable with the connotation of the marvelous or unheard of" (BDAG).

The use of καινός to refer to the new heaven and new earth in Isaiah (LXX) and Revelation suggests that it will be something we haven't experienced before. Similarly, when the one on the throne declares (in the present tense): "I am making all things new" (Rev 21:5); I suspect that he is referring to things that we haven't experienced before.
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Mark Brown

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Re: The LORD Doing New Things in Isaiah
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2022, 02:47:04 PM »
The Christmas Day epistle really should answer this.  Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke by the prophets, but now in these last days, he has spoken to us by his Son. (Heb 1:1). Is there ever going to be a better or more complete Word than the Son of God himself?  Even the new heavens and the new earth are already here in the resurrection.  That "new thing" is already here.  Today it is here by faith, tomorrow when the old robe is rolled up (Heb 1:12) it will be seen by all.