So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?

[kls]

Real men don't kill babies, they love them, and protect them.

I'm so getting that bumper sticker!

[iowakatie1981]

Real men don't kill babies, they love them, and protect them.

Real Lutherans don't kill babies, they baptize them!

(And any man who felt I needed access to all forms of medical care abortion would soon find himself needing a dentist.)

[kls]

Real men don't kill babies, they love them, and protect them.

Real Lutherans don't kill babies, they baptize them!

(And any man who felt I needed access to all forms of medical care abortion would soon find himself needing a dentist.)

OK, this one will be on the other side of my bumper!

Katie, might I add that you've got a lot of guts to be willing to make this point so publicly.

[olarmy02]

Real men don't kill babies, they love them, and protect them.

Real Lutherans don't kill babies, they baptize them!

(And any man who felt I needed access to all forms of medical care abortion would soon find himself needing a dentist.)

It would be great if this forum had an option to "like" a post as on facebook!

[MaddogLutheran]

Real men don't kill babies, they love them, and protect them.

Real Lutherans don't kill babies, they baptize them!

(And any man who felt I needed access to all forms of medical care abortion would soon find himself needing a dentist.)

It would be great if this forum had an option to "like" a post as on facebook!

Yes, I've been meaning to offer that suggestion in the "Changes Coming" thread; of course it has to be possible with the software.  There have been numerous times over the years where I wish I could have offered a "me too", but refrained to avoid cluttering a thread.

[iowakatie1981]

Facebook is where I first found it, so I can't take all the credit.  I've since seen other incarnations substituting Catholics, and Christians, for Lutherans.

(And Kim - well, you've got to stand for something, right?)

[Kurt Weinelt]

I would say that simple machismo is part of being a young man at least at some level. Virtue is learned by interaction between machismo of the young and the wisdom of the elders who have transcended that stage of life. The long forgotten, or maybe transcended, article that began the thread argues that the venues for the interaction are vanishing which leaves young men in the questionable state of having to make it up on their own. Yes, adolescent machismo then suddenly becomes the mark of men.
The subsequent discussion that Brian H and I have egged on is more about creating venues where the church an be the catalyst for the transition. The most experienced rider leads the convoy of motorcycles. right behind him are the least experienced and then the rest of the group in ascending order of experience. There is a reason for that. The old dog ahead will not lead you into dangerous places or set a dangerous pace. The old dogs behind know how to stop and avoid hitting you after you go down pulling a dumb stunt. They also know to pull you aside at the next rest stop and read you the riot act about pulling wheelies in a crowd but the same old dog knows how to pull a wheelie and the young guy knows it.
The experienced quail hunters, who lead a newbies, often bring home less game. They keep both the prey and the  young hunters (and their guns) in sight and sometimes spend some time hitting the dirt as inexperienced guns swing round.
In both cases wisdom is slowly learned and virtue can arise as well. But the venue had to be there for the interaction which is why some of us worry about creating this type of interaction.

This post really has me thinking. As a young boy, I remember fishing on the Kure Beach Pier with my Lutheran pastor father (father-son bonding ritual) and asking him what I thought were life's tough questions. It was easier to talk to each other in that setting than in others where we were distracted by other things. The point is, discussions work for men in a setting like that.
Kurt

[DCharlton]

Perhaps some of the over reaction to our discussion found above comes from the confusion between Machismo and Virtue.  Virtue, as I understand it, has the same root as the word viril.  Boys instinctively know that they need to acquire the virtues need for the journey of life.  In the classical tradition, they were Prudence(Wisdom), Justice, Courage, and Temperance.  To this the Church added, Faith, Hope and Love.

In place of the classic list, modern-movie-manliness gives us the Rash, Arbitrary, Risk Taking, and Lustfilled leading man.  These are false virtues that many of our boys are left to emulate.  Much of classic literature deals with the sometimes painful struggle of learning the difference.  

I would say that simple machismo is part of being a young man at least at some level. Virtue is learned by interaction between machismo of the young and the wisdom of the elders who have transcended that stage of life. The long forgotten, or maybe transcended, article that began the thread argues that the venues for the interaction are vanishing which leaves young men in the questionable state of having to make it up on their own. Yes, adolescent machismo then suddenly becomes the mark of men.

The subsequent discussion that Brian H and I have egged on is more about creating venues where the church an be the catalyst for the transition. The most experienced rider leads the convoy of motorcycles. right behind him are the least experienced and then the rest of the group in ascending order of experience. There is a reason for that. The old dog ahead will not lead you into dangerous places or set a dangerous pace. The old dogs behind know how to stop and avoid hitting you after you go down pulling a dumb stunt. They also know to pull you aside at the next rest stop and read you the riot act about pulling wheelies in a crowd but the same old dog knows how to pull a wheelie and the young guy knows it.
The experienced quail hunters, who lead a newbies, often bring home less game. They keep both the prey and the  young hunters (and their guns) in sight and sometimes spend some time hitting the dirt as inexperienced guns swing round.
In both cases wisdom is slowly learned and virtue can arise as well. But the venue had to be there for the interaction which is why some of us worry about creating this type of interaction.

You and I are on the same page.  I assumed that this was what you and Brian had in mind.  In particlar, your words here summarize what I was getting at:


"I would say that simple machismo is part of being a young man at least at some level. Virtue is learned by interaction between machismo of the young and the wisdom of the elders who have transcended that stage of life. The long forgotten, or maybe transcended, article that began the thread argues that the venues for the interaction are vanishing which leaves young men in the questionable state of having to make it up on their own. Yes, adolescent machismo then suddenly becomes the mark of men."

That's why I paired four adolescent characteristics with the Cardinal Virtues.  Boys need us to help them learn the difference between being

Rash or Prudent
Arbitrary or Just
Foolhardy or Courageous
Lustful or Temperant

[Maryland Brian]

Of course, if those adventures happen to be inspired by a church with a woman pastor, or a church where same-sex couples serve on the council; then I guess it can't be a real adventure, can it? That has to come from a church where men dominate, heterosexuality is the orientation du jour, (or du semaine, or du année), and everyone has some kind of deadly weapon in their closet.

... If things were different, they wouldn't be the way they are.  Few of our churches have young men.  I suspect they've run into enough condescension like above to understand they aren't wanted.  So they stay away. My sense is you actually celebrate it, though not likely to admit it.

[SCPO]

The feminization and homosexualization of our culture, both in the church, and in society, has resulted in the fact that often, very often, men are depicted as mouth-breaking bafoons who have to be tamed and tempered by plenty of estrogen-centric activities...

       How on earth could anyone think such a thing

[Charles_Austin]

And I think he means "mouth-breathing buffoons," but he was so eager to pounce that he didn't read what he had written.

[ptmccain]

The feminization and homosexualization of our culture, both in the church, and in society, has resulted in the fact that often, very often, men are depicted as mouth-breaking bafoons who have to be tamed and tempered by plenty of estrogen-centric activities...

       How on earth could anyone think such a thing

Welcome to the 21st century, Senior Chief.

[ptmccain]

Let's add to the list of decidedly unmanly behaviors:

Obsessively and compulsively looking for every chance to correct grammar, syntax and spelling on this forum, in crabby old schoolmarmish fashion.

[Maryland Brian]

The feminization and homosexualization of our culture, both in the church, and in society, has resulted in the fact that often, very often, men are depicted as mouth-breaking bafoons who have to be tamed and tempered by plenty of estrogen-centric activities...

       How on earth could anyone think such a thing

Hang around with enough young men and you'll understand why he'd say such a thing.  Or, hang around emotionally healthy young women and get their take on young men these days.

[RogerMartim]

I am not sure I get the point of this posting.

There are straight men who have masculine traits.
There are straight men who have feminine traits.
There are straight men who have both masculine and feminine traits.
There are gay men who have masculine traits.
There are gay men who have feminine traits.
There are gay men who have both masculine and feminine traits.

All of the above applies to women as well.

It would be a pretty boring world if a person had to mold oneself into a person that he or she isn't meant to be. Whatever trait one has doesn't tell you diddly doo what that person is but that...

We are all God's children.