So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?

[kls]

Girls will have a difficult time being girls and women in a church body that refuses to let them exercise all of their God-given gifts, prevents them from full participation in church leadership, and attempts to teach that God has decreed that they shall be subordinate to whatever male heads their social unit, whether it be family, classroom, church, or anything else and has formally blessed this kind of discrimination as "natural law" when in fact it has nothing to do with natural law and is a deep corruption of the very essence of what it means to be a human being.

Nope, I'm having the easiest time of my life being a woman in my church body! 

[Charles_Austin]

But others, deaconess, are not. And other women outside your church body could not.

[iowakatie1981]

No, some of us just long for the day when discretion was a part of polite conversation.

I've hesitated thus far, Kim, but I can hold back no longer...

Might the very existence of this thread be perhaps the greatest argument in favor of ordaining women?    

I mean, I personally guarantee that when I have conversations with my colleagues (male or female) in what could reasonably be described as a professional forum, I do not discuss my __________, nor their relationship to my mode of transportation.  Just sayin.' 

Duh.  I know exactly what it means, and by whom the term is primarily used.  Doesn't make it any less disgusting. 

Actually, if after hearing the etymology of the term, and being informed that it doesn't refer to a part of the male anatomy and isn't meant to have the connotations you ascribe to it, you still can't get past it sounding "disgusting", that says more about your sensibilities than it does about the term itself.

Katie, I think he's saying we're the most sensible ones on this thread (and Erma!).  Bwaaaa haaaa ha!

If, after all that has been said to indicate that the reference to the portion of the body that sits upon the seat of a motorcycle is in no way, shape, or form a reference to anything sexual, salacious, or naughty, and you still have to use a _________ to substitute for the term, then perhaps that indicates being too sensitive.

There's not much difference between an adolescent boy snickering when a donkey is referred to as an "ass" and a grown women getting the vapors over the use of the word crotch in reference to where a motorcyle rider's body interfaces with the motorcycle. Neither is a mature, appropriate response.

Do you swoon when the four upright portions of a table that support the table top are called "legs"?

[Maryland Brian]

But others, deaconess, are not. And other women outside your church body could not.

And as a man, you are gifted in telling her how she should feel about it, right?

[jrubyaz]

And men will have a difficult time in a church body that has neutered all God language, doesn't make men feel welcome, has feminized the church, and leaves pastors guessing as to which grenade will be lobbed if they use the wrong word for God. ....

Girls will have a difficult time being girls and women in a church body that refuses to let them exercise all of their God-given gifts, prevents them from full participation in church leadership, and attempts to teach that God has decreed that they shall be subordinate to whatever male heads their social unit, whether it be family, classroom, church, or anything else and has formally blessed this kind of discrimination as "natural law" when in fact it has nothing to do with natural law and is a deep corruption of the very essence of what it means to be a human being.

[Charles_Austin]

Pastor Hughes writes (re my comment to Deaconess Schave):
And as a man, you are gifted in telling her how she should feel about it, right?

I respond:
Didn't tell her how she should "feel" about it. Don't care how she feels about it.
But my original comment was directed toward the predictable, unctuous words by ptmccain. He has his view of the church. I am entitled to mine. He is entitled to say what disgusts him. And so am I.

[Maryland Brian]

Pastor Hughes writes (re my comment to Deaconess Schave):
And as a man, you are gifted in telling her how she should feel about it, right?

I respond:
Didn't tell her how she should "feel" about it. Don't care how she feels about it.
But my original comment was directed toward the predictable, unctuous words by ptmccain. He has his view of the church. I am entitled to mine. He is entitled to say what disgusts him. And so am I.

But you didn't send it to him.  You sent it to one of the few women participating on this thread.  This after deciding discussing male anatomy would help the conversation.  Lord save us from tolerant, sexist men.

[DCharlton]

My son and I have our own version of the Inklings.  Our favorite pastime is to go on walks while we discuss books and other forms of narrative, including movies and telivision shows.  Occasionally, our talks include video games.  We're more likely to talk about Stephen King than Jane Austen, of course.  I don't think this makes us girly-men,  but perhaps it is a little nerdy.    

[ptmccain]

DCharlton...oh, not at all. This is the kind of vigorous, virile, manly life of the mind that thinking men crave and why, when they are subjected to not much more in church than emotional fluff, emotionalism, and maudlin displays of feelings without any true intellectual substance, they will simply move away, and are moving away, from the church. So much of the substance in the liberal protestant mainline has reduced the great and awesome mysteries of the faith, the full-blooded reality of the God-man combating all the minions of Satan, to "Precious Moments" theology filled with sweet-nothings.

No wonder men are taking a hike from Church.

I commend the hikes you are taking with your son!

[George Erdner]

If, after all that has been said to indicate that the reference to the portion of the body that sits upon the seat of a motorcycle is in no way, shape, or form a reference to anything sexual, salacious, or naughty, and you still have to use a _________ to substitute for the term, then perhaps that indicates being too sensitive.

There's not much difference between an adolescent boy snickering when a donkey is referred to as an "ass" and a grown women getting the vapors over the use of the word crotch in reference to where a motorcyle rider's body interfaces with the motorcycle. Neither is a mature, appropriate response.

Do you swoon when the four upright portions of a table that support the table top are called "legs"?

Oh, George, there's just something gross about that word to a lady.  There are words I hate that are used to describe the female anatomy, too.  By all means, have your boyish fun.  If we want to use an underline because we actually were taught decency and modesty as ladies, then let us be.   

Kim, there are degrees and levels of "decency and modesty". I am only suggesting that in the year of our Lord 2010, the quaint and excessive standards of "decency and modesty" common when HRH Victoria was Queen of England are no longer appropriate. The days of going into a swoon because of a word like "crotch" when referring to a, well, crotch, are long behind us. I'm 59 years old. I was raised by parents who were above average in terms of personal ""decency and modesty", and I know that neither of them, nor either of my grandmothers, both of whom were born around the turn of the last century would get the vapors at hearing the word "crotch" used. I can recall when I was a grade school kid back in the 1950's when I was being taken to the local store to buy some back to-school trousers and my grandmother told the salesman to be sure the pants "fit in the crotch".

But, I'll off you and anyone else who is so sensitive that she cannot bear the word "crotch" when used in a non-sexual setting this simple proposal. Tell us what euphemism you would prefer to be used in place of that objectionable word. Suggested alternatives include loins, groin, lap, pelvic girdle, and pubic area.   

And for the record, I am not attempting to decree how anyone should feel about any particular word. If some people are excessively sensitive about certain words even though such excessive sensitivities are, well, excessive, I am not saying that they are wrong to be overly and excessively sensitive. If anyone wishes to be overly and excessively sensitive about certain words, then that is what they are. It would be no more appropriate for me to attempt to force someone to get over their extremely excessive over-sensitivity to certain words than it would be for the overly sensitive to attempt to compel me to accept and agree with their perceptions. Excessive over-reaction to particular words is neither more nor less a sign of superior character or qualification than a relaxed, tolerant attitude is.

[kls]

Kim, there are degrees and levels of "decency and modesty". I am only suggesting that in the year of our Lord 2010, the quaint and excessive standards of "decency and modesty" common when HRH Victoria was Queen of England are no longer appropriate. The days of going into a swoon because of a word like "crotch" when referring to a, well, crotch, are long behind us. I'm 59 years old. I was raised by parents who were above average in terms of personal ""decency and modesty", and I know that neither of them, nor either of my grandmothers, both of whom were born around the turn of the last century would get the vapors at hearing the word "crotch" used. I can recall when I was a grade school kid back in the 1950's when I was being taken to the local store to buy some back to-school trousers and my grandmother told the salesman to be sure the pants "fit in the crotch".

But, I'll off you and anyone else who is so sensitive that she cannot bear the word "crotch" when used in a non-sexual setting this simple proposal. Tell us what euphemism you would prefer to be used in place of that objectionable word. Suggested alternatives include loins, groin, lap, pelvic girdle, and pubic area.   

And for the record, I am not attempting to decree how anyone should feel about any particular word. If some people are excessively sensitive about certain words even though such excessive sensitivities are, well, excessive, I am not saying that they are wrong to be overly and excessively sensitive. If anyone wishes to be overly and excessively sensitive about certain words, then that is what they are. It would be no more appropriate for me to attempt to force someone to get over their extremely excessive over-sensitivity to certain words than it would be for the overly sensitive to attempt to compel me to accept and agree with their perceptions. Excessive over-reaction to particular words is neither more nor less a sign of superior character or qualification than a relaxed, tolerant attitude is.

Oh, George, lighten up.  How about "privates?"     I've spent a good deal of time in crisis pregnancy counseling which also extends to sexual abstinence education.  I know the terms, I use the terms, and I hear some crazy new terms from kids these days and try not to roll my eyes at them.  Your point has been made.

[DCharlton]

DCharlton...oh, not at all. This is the kind of vigorous, virile, manly life of the mind that thinking men crave and why, when they are subjected to not much more in church than emotional fluff, emotionalism, and maudlin displays of feelings without any true intellectual substance, they will simply move away, and are moving away, from the church. So much of the substance in the liberal protestant mainline has reduced the great and awesome mysteries of the faith, the full-blooded reality of the God-man combating all the minions of Satan, to "Precious Moments" theology filled with sweet-nothings.

No wonder men are taking a hike from Church.

I commend the hikes you are taking with your son!

Thanks Paul.  I have been inspired by C.S. Lewis' vision of moral education through the study of classic literature in The Abolition of Man.  I wonder whether the hostility to heroism and virtue in modern literature is one of the reasons that boys show little interest in it.   

[Maryland Brian]

Thanks Paul.  I have been inspired by C.S. Lewis' vision of moral education through the study of classic literature in The Abolition of Man.  I wonder whether the hostility to heroism and virtue in modern literature is one of the reasons that boys show little interest in it.   

  Intriguing insight of the day.  If Christianity is not framed as an adventure, from safety into peril for the sake of honor or the call, then our core invitation is too wimpy to inspire men to participation. 

[ptmccain]

Bingo.

[Dadoo]

Thanks Paul.  I have been inspired by C.S. Lewis' vision of moral education through the study of classic literature in The Abolition of Man.  I wonder whether the hostility to heroism and virtue in modern literature is one of the reasons that boys show little interest in it.   

  Intriguing insight of the day.  If Christianity is not framed as an adventure, from safety into peril for the sake of honor or the call, then our core invitation is too wimpy to inspire men to participation. 

Well put. Men need to be on a mission, be involved in a conquest of sorts, an ordeal, a struggle. It would not be life without it somehow.