Author Topic: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?  (Read 7614 times)

Charles_Austin

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Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
« Reply #105 on: December 17, 2010, 09:01:01 AM »
Pastor Hughes writes:
If Christianity is not framed as an adventure, from safety into peril for the sake of honor or the call, then our core invitation is too wimpy to inspire men to participation.  

I comment:
O.k., let's strap on some survival gear and saddle up....
How about the "adventure" of helping Bible-believing, faithful women seeking a chance to follow God's call in a church where men refuse to recognize that call?
*Or the "adventure" of being gay or lesbian and attempting to be a faithful Christian in a church or world which makes that extremely difficult?
*Or the "adventure" of being a pacifist or conscientious objector trying to follow the Prince of Peace as you feel called to do so in a country which glamorizes military service and believes that the only sacrifice one can make for one's country is to put on a uniform and kill or die?
*Or the "adventure" of standing up for the rights of religious minorities, including Muslims, when a majority of a community wants to ban certain forms of religious expression?
*Or the "adventure" of seeking better aid and conditions for poor children when tax breaks are for the rich and there is always money for more financial bailouts but not for health care for babies?
*Or the "adventure" of seeking equal access to all forms of medical care for women when politicians and fellow Christians would cut off those forms of care and even prevent doctors from talking about it?
*Or the "adventure" of having your kid's softball or soccer coach fuss and fume because you won't bring them to practice on Sunday morning until after church or Sunday School?
*Or the "adventure" of carrying or reading a Bible at work, backing away from boozy office parties laden with sexuality or inviting a co-worker to church or Bible study?
*Or the "adventure" of downsizing luxuries so that one can tithe and take the attendant hits from those who wonder why you aren't driving a car "suitable" for your status?
*And there are more....
Of course, if those adventures happen to be inspired by a church with a woman pastor, or a church where same-sex couples serve on the council; then I guess it can't be a real adventure, can it? That has to come from a church where men dominate, heterosexuality is the orientation du jour, (or du semaine, or du année), and everyone has some kind of deadly weapon in their closet.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2010, 09:37:26 AM by Charles_Austin »

ptmccain

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Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
« Reply #106 on: December 17, 2010, 09:29:12 AM »


Thanks Paul.  I have been inspired by C.S. Lewis' vision of moral education through the study of classic literature in The Abolition of Man.  I wonder whether the hostility to heroism and virtue in modern literature is one of the reasons that boys show little interest in it.   

  Intriguing insight of the day.  If Christianity is not framed as an adventure, from safety into peril for the sake of honor or the call, then our core invitation is too wimpy to inspire men to participation. 

Well put. Men need to be on a mission, be involved in a conquest of sorts, an ordeal, a struggle. It would not be life without it somehow.


Well said!!

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
« Reply #107 on: December 17, 2010, 09:32:44 AM »
And men will have a difficult time in a church body that has neutered all God language, doesn't make men feel welcome, has feminized the church, and leaves pastors guessing as to which grenade will be lobbed if they use the wrong word for God. .... ::)

I don't know if we've veered that far, but I do recall receiving in the mail a CPH flyer on new Bible studies. The front cover had a picture of these beautiful young folks, gathered for study. My recollection is that there were 6 to 8 of them. Both genders and various races. I looked at it, showed it to my wife, and commented, "Everyone represented, except for the white guy! Where's the white guy?"

She patted my arm and replied, "Settle, dear. He's assumed to be there."
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it’s not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Charles_Austin

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Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
« Reply #108 on: December 17, 2010, 09:39:16 AM »
Pastor Kirch writes:
She patted my arm and replied, "Settle, dear. He's assumed to be there."

I muse:
But that's wrong, according to some folks here. Guys aren't in the church cause there aren't enough deer-hunting retreats.

Dadoo

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Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
« Reply #109 on: December 17, 2010, 09:47:25 AM »
Pastor Kirch writes:
She patted my arm and replied, "Settle, dear. He's assumed to be there."

I muse:
But that's wrong, according to some folks here. Guys aren't in the church cause there aren't enough deer-hunting retreats.

That would actually be a good idea in many midwestern places. Hunting during the day, retreat activities in the evening at a lodge. It would be well attended and well appreciated assuming it was done right.
Peter Kruse

Diversity and tolerance are very complex concepts. Rigid conformity is needed to ensure their full realization. - Mike Adams

ptmccain

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Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
« Reply #110 on: December 17, 2010, 09:52:07 AM »
The most enjoyable men's retreat I attended was in the fantastic LCMS church camp down in Texas, Camp Lone Star, where we spent lots of time in lectures and discussions about the Book of Concord, with breaks for skeet shooting.

Great BBQ, beer, BOC and skeet shooting, not necessarily in that order, in fact, precisely not in that order. Beer drinking was only at night around a huge campfire looking up at the stars at night which are big and bright, deep in the heart of Texas.

I suppose we could have had tea parties and sat around and discussed our feelings and picked out new wallpaper for our powder rooms, but this was much more fun.

 :)

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
« Reply #111 on: December 17, 2010, 09:57:59 AM »
Pastor Kirch writes:
She patted my arm and replied, "Settle, dear. He's assumed to be there."

I muse:
But that's wrong, according to some folks here. Guys aren't in the church cause there aren't enough deer-hunting retreats.

So, I guess CPH was simply manifesting the reality of the situation?
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it’s not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

olarmy02

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Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
« Reply #112 on: December 17, 2010, 10:01:34 AM »
The most enjoyable men's retreat I attended was in the fantastic LCMS church camp down in Texas, Camp Lone Star, where we spent lots of time in lectures and discussions about the Book of Concord, with breaks for skeet shooting.

Great BBQ, beer, BOC and skeet shooting, not necessarily in that order, in fact, precisely not in that order. Beer drinking was only at night around a huge campfire looking up at the stars at night which are big and bright, deep in the heart of Texas.

I suppose we could have had tea parties and sat around and discussed our feelings and picked out new wallpaper for our powder rooms, but this was much more fun.

 :)

In La Grange, TX!?  Interesting  ;D
Rev. S.P. McMaughan
"there is no distinction between true and false interpretation of scripture without the formation of confession"  Sasse

DCharlton

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Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
« Reply #113 on: December 17, 2010, 10:19:31 AM »
Perhaps some of the over reaction to our discussion found above comes from the confusion between Machismo and Virtue.  Virtue, as I understand it, has the same root as the word viril.  Boys instinctively know that they need to acquire the virtues need for the journey of life.  In the classical tradition, they were Prudence(Wisdom), Justice, Courage, and Temperance.  To this the Church added, Faith, Hope and Love.

In place of the classic list, modern-movie-manliness gives us the Rash, Arbitrary, Risk Taking, and Lustfilled leading man.  These are false virtues that many of our boys are left to emulate.  Much of classic literature deals with the sometimes painful struggle of learning the difference.  

David Charlton  

Was Algul Siento a divinity school?

ptmccain

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Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
« Reply #114 on: December 17, 2010, 10:29:00 AM »
The feminization and homosexualization of our culture, both in the church, and in society, has resulted in the fact that often, very often, men are depicted as mouth-breaking bafoons who have to be tamed and tempered by plenty of estrogen-centric activities, fathers held up to ridicule and jokes, and the "virtuous homosexual" held up as the role model.

We reap what we sow.

No wonder many Muslims look upon our society and culture with contempt.

Dadoo

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Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
« Reply #115 on: December 17, 2010, 10:30:34 AM »
Pastor Hughes writes:
If Christianity is not framed as an adventure, from safety into peril for the sake of honor or the call, then our core invitation is too wimpy to inspire men to participation.  

I comment:
O.k., let's strap on some survival gear and saddle up....
How about the "adventure" of helping Bible-believing, faithful women seeking a chance to follow God's call in a church where men refuse to recognize that call?
*Or the "adventure" of being gay or lesbian and attempting to be a faithful Christian in a church or world which makes that extremely difficult?
*Or the "adventure" of being a pacifist or conscientious objector trying to follow the Prince of Peace as you feel called to do so in a country which glamorizes military service and believes that the only sacrifice one can make for one's country is to put on a uniform and kill or die?
*Or the "adventure" of standing up for the rights of religious minorities, including Muslims, when a majority of a community wants to ban certain forms of religious expression?
*Or the "adventure" of seeking better aid and conditions for poor children when tax breaks are for the rich and there is always money for more financial bailouts but not for health care for babies?
*Or the "adventure" of seeking equal access to all forms of medical care for women when politicians and fellow Christians would cut off those forms of care and even prevent doctors from talking about it?
*Or the "adventure" of having your kid's softball or soccer coach fuss and fume because you won't bring them to practice on Sunday morning until after church or Sunday School?
*Or the "adventure" of carrying or reading a Bible at work, backing away from boozy office parties laden with sexuality or inviting a co-worker to church or Bible study?
*Or the "adventure" of downsizing luxuries so that one can tithe and take the attendant hits from those who wonder why you aren't driving a car "suitable" for your status?
*And there are more....
Of course, if those adventures happen to be inspired by a church with a woman pastor, or a church where same-sex couples serve on the council; then I guess it can't be a real adventure, can it? That has to come from a church where men dominate, heterosexuality is the orientation du jour, (or du semaine, or du année), and everyone has some kind of deadly weapon in their closet.

All these have some sort of merit, Charles. The list is familiar to all of us who are in the ELCA. They are the current "action points" or whatever one might call them, that the ELCA and the denominations we are in communion with, value. They also sound like they were written by someone who has spent a good amount of time in academia. WHile there is no dark sinister plan behind them nor even a "light shade at noon type  dark" plan in them, these are adventures in churches that have the very problems engaging men that are being talked about here. So, worthy goal that they might be, they don't seem to connect with the guys. Maybe then it is a good idea to do things that will engage the guys and see if they will take up some of the causes championed in your post.
Peter Kruse

Diversity and tolerance are very complex concepts. Rigid conformity is needed to ensure their full realization. - Mike Adams

Kurt Weinelt

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Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
« Reply #116 on: December 17, 2010, 10:42:40 AM »
Someone posts:
*Or the "adventure" of seeking equal access to all forms of medical care for women when politicians and fellow Christians would cut off those forms of care and even prevent doctors from talking about it?

I retort:
Wow. The "adventure" of promoting abortion. That'll draw "real men" to the church. :P
"Learning about history is an antidote to the hubris of the present, the idea that everything in OUR lives is the ultimate." David McCullough

ptmccain

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Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
« Reply #117 on: December 17, 2010, 10:50:07 AM »
Real men don't kill babies, they love them, and protect them.

Dadoo

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Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
« Reply #118 on: December 17, 2010, 10:52:22 AM »
Perhaps some of the over reaction to our discussion found above comes from the confusion between Machismo and Virtue.  Virtue, as I understand it, has the same root as the word viril.  Boys instinctively know that they need to acquire the virtues need for the journey of life.  In the classical tradition, they were Prudence(Wisdom), Justice, Courage, and Temperance.  To this the Church added, Faith, Hope and Love.

In place of the classic list, modern-movie-manliness gives us the Rash, Arbitrary, Risk Taking, and Lustfilled leading man.  These are false virtues that many of our boys are left to emulate.  Much of classic literature deals with the sometimes painful struggle of learning the difference.  



I would say that simple machismo is part of being a young man at least at some level. Virtue is learned by interaction between machismo of the young and the wisdom of the elders who have transcended that stage of life. The long forgotten, or maybe transcended, article that began the thread argues that the venues for the interaction are vanishing which leaves young men in the questionable state of having to make it up on their own. Yes, adolescent machismo then suddenly becomes the mark of men.

The subsequent discussion that Brian H and I have egged on is more about creating venues where the church an be the catalyst for the transition. The most experienced rider leads the convoy of motorcycles. right behind him are the least experienced and then the rest of the group in ascending order of experience. There is a reason for that. The old dog ahead will not lead you into dangerous places or set a dangerous pace. The old dogs behind know how to stop and avoid hitting you after you go down pulling a dumb stunt. They also know to pull you aside at the next rest stop and read you the riot act about pulling wheelies in a crowd but the same old dog knows how to pull a wheelie and the young guy knows it.
The experienced quail hunters, who lead a newbies, often bring home less game. They keep both the prey and the  young hunters (and their guns) in sight and sometimes spend some time hitting the dirt as inexperienced guns swing round.
In both cases wisdom is slowly learned and virtue can arise as well. But the venue had to be there for the interaction which is why some of us worry about creating this type of interaction.
Peter Kruse

Diversity and tolerance are very complex concepts. Rigid conformity is needed to ensure their full realization. - Mike Adams

olarmy02

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Re: So What If Boys Can't Be Boys And Men Can't Be Men?
« Reply #119 on: December 17, 2010, 10:56:22 AM »
Someone posts:
*Or the "adventure" of seeking equal access to all forms of medical care for women when politicians and fellow Christians would cut off those forms of care and even prevent doctors from talking about it?

I retort:
Wow. The "adventure" of promoting abortion. That'll draw "real men" to the church. :P

And yet
 
*Or the "adventure" of being a pacifist or conscientious objector trying to follow the Prince of Peace as you feel called to do so in a country which glamorizes military service and believes that the only sacrifice one can make for one's country is to put on a uniform and kill or die?
 ??? :'(
Rev. S.P. McMaughan
"there is no distinction between true and false interpretation of scripture without the formation of confession"  Sasse