The Ordination of Women

[grabau14]

Brian,

Did Jesus institute the Office of the Holy Ministry? Because in the Gospel texts that Pr. Kirchner and I have given, it explicitly shows an office being given (to men).  Your arguments concerning the ministry seem to be more in line with the Wauwatosan thelogians than that of historic Lutheranism.

Also, your line of thinking is out of line with the AC XXVIII,  Our teachers hold that according to the Gospel the power of keys or the power of bishops is a power or command of God to preach the Gospel, to remit and retain sins, and to administer the sacraments.  For Christ sent out the apostles with this command, “As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.  Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”  According to Mark 16:15 he also said, “Go and preach the gospel to the whole creation.”

[grabau]

The priesthood of believers does not mean that every person should have a turn in the chancel. grabau

[Steven Tibbetts]

II Corinthians 5:18-20 When Paul had Timothy accompany him, he had him circumcised (Acts 16:1-2). There's nothing in Acts about Timothy receiving the laying on of hands.

2 Timothy 1:6.

[vicarbob]

Acts 6:1-6 Ironically, one of those selected to "wait on tables" (so that the apostles could give attention to prayer and the ministry of the word) was the first to be martyred for performing miracles and preaching the Word. Perhaps with a perverted kind of logic, some might claim that the stoning of Stephen was because of God's judgment against this "deacon" who overstepped his authority and was preaching the Word rather than just distributing food (and/or money).

This was put forward by a highly respected pastor and acknowledged Hebrew Testament scholar two years ago at our monthy conference meeting. I thought he was jesting, but wasn't. The curious thing was that , at his invitation, I had lead services ( 4-5 times) at the congregation he served when he was away on vacation. After our public discussion, I wasn't invited back. I heard later that he didn't appreciate a deacon questioning the biblical scholarship of a pastor. I think he was having a bad week....

[A Catholic Lutheran]

First, let me lay a couple of my (proverbial) cards out upon the table:
-I was, at one time, a strident activist for the Ordination of women.  I still would not strip the ordianation of women away from those who have already been ordained.
-I am not in favor of of the ordination of women any longer, NOT because women are not talented or unable to ably fulfill the demands of ministry, but because I have come to see ordination as belonging to the whole (catholic) Church, not merely one segment or age.  In other words, the contemporary Church cannot merely assert it's right or understanding of ordination over-and-above the the Church throughout the ages, nor can one denomination (or a group of denominations) assert their rights and understanding over-and-above other Christians...ESPECIALLY those Christians who confess that they believe in the "one, holy, catholic, and apostolic" understanding of the Church.
-I have BIG problems with both the foundations and the implications of HOW the LCA and ALC came to practice the ordination of women.  This includes basic hermeneutical methodology (such as diminishing Paul as being chauvensitic and misogynetistic and hence irrelevant), political arguments (such as tackling the issue on the base of "equal rights" as opposed to a Churchly understanding of ministry), and a sense of superiority (ie. a sense of being enlightened and progressive because "we ordain women" as opposed to the "backwards" people who do not...).

All these being said...  If I were to argue FOR the ordination of women, I would begin here:
-John 20:16-8, especially where our Lord calls Saint Mary Magdalene by name and gives her a charge: "But go to my brothers and say to them 'I am ascending to my Father and to your Father, to my God and your God.'"  In this exchange we see a mirroring of both the Prophetic form of call, where God calls out to the Prophet and gives them a word to speak and also the classic form of Apostolic call where Jesus calls his Apostles and gives them charge like "Follow me and I will make you fishers of men," and "Let down the net for a catch."  This call and charge led Saint Bernard of Clairvaux to bestow upon Saint Mary Magdalene the honorific title of "Apostle to the Apostles," though it should be as quickly noted that the Church has never officially understood the call of Christ to Mary Magdalene as actually extending the Apostolic Office to Mary.  But this would be my starting point since, at least it begins with a discussion of the Apostolic ministry.

-I would then turn my attention to the Feast of Pentecost in Acts 2, where Saint Peter begins to explain Pentecost by recalling the Prophet Joel: "In the last days, it will be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy..."  This proclamation signals that Pentecost is an eschatological event, that something decisive has happened within the Christian community.  We continue to echo that thought in the Eucharistic Prayer (for those who use the EP at least) when we proclaim that "at the end of the age, you sent your Son, Jesus Christ..."  The curse of Original Sin that set male and female at odds with each other has been lifted, prolepticly we live within this new reality even as we struggle with sin's effects.  This is part and parcel for the Lutheran understanding of Simul Justus et Peccator, the "already/not yet" characteristic of God's Kingdom.  Now, does this set the stage for the inclusion of women in the Pastoral office?  I would hasten to say that women have already occupied an office and estate within the Church where they "prophesy" and proclaim God's word and will already, and so such a proleptic reality does not NECESSARILY mean that the Pastoral/Apostolic office is somehow opened.  But again, at least (to my ears) such an argument begins to take seriously the Kingdom of God rather than taking a civil/civil rights approach to the the argument.

-If we are looking for an Old Testament precident, I would not turn to Miriam nor Deborah, but rather (as I have said elsewhere) to Zipporah (Moses' wife and priestess of Midian) who, in Exodus 4 functions in some sort of priestly role. (Exodus 4:24-26)  It's thin...really thin...but it's at least something closer to the sacredotal role than any of the arguments I have heard elsewhere.

Again, I am not persuaded.  But these are the texts and arguments that I think are at least worth arguing from.  I don't know, maybe some have argued these before, but I haven't seen these texts being wrestled with. 

Pax Christi;
Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS

[Harvey_Mozolak]

and Jerry, while your texts are a good beginning, I still see many of the Pauline submission and silence texts to be in context so closely connected and excuse the word, braided, intertwined with headcoverings and other things that are simply ignored by contemporary Christendom and even the doctrinal tradition of the church...   we have been working thru 1 Corinthians in Bible Class since Sept and as we draw toward the end I did some comparative reading in commentaries by CPH  (not that I hold them up as the best or hold them up for any form of ridicule) just to say that it is interesting that they cannot agree whether tongues ceased or whether they were foreign language facility or a language unlike any other human tongue (both gifts of the Spirit) and cannot agree whether prophecy is some special gift given and ceasing with the early church, something similar to OT prophecy or another word for pastoral preaching.  And it seems to me that there is even more clarity with these issues than questions of women's role with men as males or as husbands as directed by the NT.  Should make BOTH sides of this issue more careful.  I know I am, just wish the other side spoke a little more like they were not hearing things from God's mouth to their doctrinal ears.  God has a lot to forgive this pile of dust that still swirls yet a bit with life.    Harvey Mozolak

[A Catholic Lutheran]

I hear and understand what you are saying here, Harvey...  It is a difficulty that affects many aspects of Church life at the moment. 

And excercising due care is a necessary condition in all our discussions.

Pax Christi;
Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS

[Kurt Strause]

I very much appreciate Pr. Kliner's bringing to the discussion John 20 and Acts 2, and his willingness to consider an ecumenical proposal he no longer endorses.

I believe that's how those of us in the ELCA ought to think of the ordination of women, as a kind of "holy ecumenical experiment" offered for the sake of the whole church of Christ. We began to ordain women, not because we believe the church had been mistaken all along, but rather that in our reading of scripture God grants us permission to do so. Yet, in a divided church, such interpretation must always be offered in humility. We ordain women for the whole church to observe and consider and, as the Spirit may give witness, to adopt. We do so humbly, allowing the practice to bear fruit, knowing that it may take decades, generations, even centuries.   

Kurt Strause

[James Gustafson]

I very much appreciate Pr. Kliner's bringing to the discussion John 20 and Acts 2, and his willingness to consider an ecumenical proposal he no longer endorses.

I believe that's how those of us in the ELCA ought to think of the ordination of women, as a kind of "holy ecumenical experiment" offered for the sake of the whole church of Christ. We began to ordain women, not because we believe the church had been mistaken all along, but rather that in our reading of scripture God grants us permission to do so. Yet, in a divided church, such interpretation must always be offered in humility. We ordain women for the whole church to observe and consider and, as the Spirit may give witness, to adopt. We do so humbly, allowing the practice to bear fruit, knowing that it may take decades, generations, even centuries.   

Kurt Strause

Is the only possible outcome the expectation of success?  How does one fail such a test then?  If it can't fail, performed until it succeeds no matter how long that takes, then its not really submitted for observation and consideration with humility.  Can the rest of the Church observe and consider and then reject?

[Kurt Strause]

Is the only possible outcome the expectation of success?  How does one fail such a test then?  If it can't fail, performed until it succeeds no matter how long that takes, then its not really submitted for observation and consideration with humility.  Can the rest of the Church observe and consider and then reject?

No, the expectation of success is not the only possible outcome. But I don't believe the first, second or maybe even third generation can make that judgment. We offer the practice for the long term. How long that term shall be, God will instruct. Offering it in humility may mean coming to the conclusion we were wrong. Again, that's a decision which shouldn't be made for a long time, long after those who first decided are all gone.

I think, whenever we can in ecumenical dialogue, urge those churches who don't ordain women to be patient with us and maintain the bonds of fellowship where possible. And from our perspective, we should not make another church's ordination of women a condition of communion.

Kurt Strause

[Vern]

Gentlemen,
In support of my position I wish to ask the following: have you ever had your congregation walk out of your Church with most of them people smiling and feeling excited? That was how we felt after our first service with Pastor Bullock. When talking to a fellow member of our Congregation I mentioned that her sermon was "down to earth". He agreed with me.

[Sandra]

Gentlemen,
In support of my position I wish to ask the following: have you ever had your congregation walk out of your Church with most of them people smiling and feeling excited? That was how we felt after our first service with Pastor Bullock. When talking to a fellow member of our Congregation I mentioned that her sermon was "down to earth". He agreed with me.

So it was good because it felt good?

Really?

[Steven Tibbetts]

In support of my position I wish to ask the following: have you ever had your congregation walk out of your Church with most of them people smiling and feeling excited?

I'm not sure what to conclude from that, other than the congregation felt good immediately after her first service.  Many pastors who later (or sooner) have been run out of town can speak of their wondrous reception at the beginning.

Pax, Steven+

[Donald_Kirchner]

Gentlemen,
In support of my position I wish to ask the following: have you ever had your congregation walk out of your Church with most of them people smiling and feeling excited? That was how we felt after our first service with Pastor Bullock.

Well, Eve felt something similar, after talking to The Liar. "So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate." [Gen. 3:6] Perhaps she was even smiling and feeling excited.

[Charles_Austin]

Yep, that's the "truth". Should you feel "good" or even inspired by a sermon from a woman, just remember - it's really Satan speaking. We get that.