Author Topic: The Ordination of Women  (Read 32111 times)

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: The Ordination of Women
« Reply #435 on: March 06, 2011, 04:48:01 PM »
I know! I know!

The women who went to the tomb on Easter morning. (Matt 28:7)  And all Christians as well may proclaim on Easter- and every day- "Christ is risen!"

I'm not sure what that has to do with to whom it is given to be a pastor. (Matt. 28:16-20) As stated above, the Stuart Smalley argument:

http://www.hark.com/clips/wgdxtcrbks-im-good-enough

is irrelevant.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2011, 04:55:30 PM by dgkirch »
Don Kirchner

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Vern

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Re: The Ordination of Women
« Reply #436 on: March 06, 2011, 07:41:59 PM »
Doesn't that show that they were told to preach the Word?

Jeremy Loesch

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Re: The Ordination of Women
« Reply #437 on: March 06, 2011, 08:41:22 PM »
No.  It has very little to do with the Office of the Holy Ministry.  The priesthood of the baptized is distinct from the pastoral office.

Jeremy
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George Erdner

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Re: The Ordination of Women
« Reply #438 on: March 06, 2011, 08:42:51 PM »
Doesn't that show that they were told to preach the Word?

It shows that those women who were eyewitnesses of an event were told to convey a specific message to a specific group of people at a specific time. It takes some interpretive extrapolation to extend that to proving (or disproving) a the eligibility of an entire gender to be similarly called for all time.

grabau

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Re: The Ordination of Women
« Reply #439 on: March 07, 2011, 09:52:19 AM »
Jeremy, yes and that is what subjectivists never can seem to understand.  If it makes me feel good it must be right.  grabau

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The Ordination of Women
« Reply #440 on: March 07, 2011, 09:57:20 AM »
No.  It has very little to do with the Office of the Holy Ministry.  The priesthood of the baptized is distinct from the pastoral office.

What are the biblical basis for making such distinctions?
"The church Ö had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: The Ordination of Women
« Reply #441 on: March 07, 2011, 12:37:50 PM »
Matt. 28:16-20
Don Kirchner

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Jeremy Loesch

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Re: The Ordination of Women
« Reply #442 on: March 07, 2011, 01:41:42 PM »
Thanks Don!  It's not too tricky to figure out. 

And neither is every man is called into the office of the holy ministry.  Some are called to be apostles, some are called to be evangelists, teachers, preachers.  Some.  Not all, but some.  My flesh-and blood brother is not called to be a pastor.  He and I are brothers by birth, and brothers by God's gracious baptism.  He serves His Lord in his various ways, I serve the same Lord in my various ways. 

And Brian, what is your understanding of baptismal theology?  Of vocation?  Of the holy ministry?  The priesthood of the baptized? 

Jeremy 
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Dave Benke

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Re: The Ordination of Women
« Reply #443 on: March 07, 2011, 03:38:24 PM »
I agree with two aspects here -
1) the argument for ordination for women based on talent would certainly not favor men exclusively, and more than likely would favor women
2) with Jeremy, the distinction between the ministry of the baptized and ordained is important.

Additionally, a question for the general conversation is then not talent, but gift-based.  Consider I Corinthians 12.  Paul is obviously referencing males and females (or the first creed, "Jesus is Lord" would belong only to men).  And the gifts listed include full participation in the Body - healing, mercy, words of wisdom, etc., plus tongues and interpretation.  Absent what I would consider a bogus "these things no longer pertain" rendering of the text, why can or should women as the baptized NOT participate in these ways? 
Similarly in Romans 12:1-8 another list of the gifts of the Spirit includes "teaching," as well as "prophecy."  Do these gifts which are to be used in public by the Church as it is Spirit-led bring about a blurring of the ordained/baptized boundary?  If so, how?  If not, how not?

Dave Benke

grabau14

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Re: The Ordination of Women
« Reply #444 on: March 07, 2011, 05:16:06 PM »
Matt. 28:16-20

And
John 20:21-23
John 21:15-17
Mark 16:15
Luke 9:1-6
Acts 20:28 (amongst others)

then you have passages that deal with the (mediate) call to the Office of the Holy Ministry such as:
Acts 1:23-26
Acts 6:1-6
Acts 9:1-19
Acts 11:25-26
Acts 13:1-3
Acts 14:21-23
Acts 20:28
II Corinthians 5:18-20
I Corinthians 12:28
I Timothy 4:14
II Timothy 1:16; 2:2
Ephesians 4:11

See also AC V, XIV, and XXVIII

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The Ordination of Women
« Reply #445 on: March 07, 2011, 05:54:45 PM »
Matt. 28:16-20

These verses don't really distinguish between the laity and ordained. We allow lay people to baptize (in emergency situations) and to teach in all kinds of situations.
"The church Ö had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: The Ordination of Women
« Reply #446 on: March 07, 2011, 05:58:58 PM »
Sure they do. You simply reject them and, instead, look to your practice for doctrine and exceptions for your rule.
Don Kirchner

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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The Ordination of Women
« Reply #447 on: March 07, 2011, 06:01:39 PM »
And Brian, what is your understanding of baptismal theology?  Of vocation?  Of the holy ministry?  The priesthood of the baptized? 

In my understanding, the primary difference between the laity and the ordained is that the ordained can preside at communion. Before I had even entered seminary, I had been preaching. I had been "sent" as an evangelist and travelled across the U.S. I had taught Sunday school.

It was not just the 11 apostles who were empowered by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost -- but all of the disciples who were present -- which may have been all of the followers of Jesus at that time.

There are no indications that any believer has not been gifted in some way by the Holy Spirit and that the gift is to be used for building up the body of Christ.
"The church Ö had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The Ordination of Women
« Reply #448 on: March 07, 2011, 06:45:32 PM »
Matt. 28:16-20

And
John 20:21-23 -- too bad about Thomas, guess he was stuck with the laity since he didn't receive the holy breath and the command about forgiveness.

John 21:15-17 -- nothing in those verses about a special office for Peter, most likely a three-fold affirmation of his place in the fellowship after his three-fold denial of Jesus.

Mark 16:15 -- I believe that throughout the gospels the Twelve/Eleven represent all believers.

Luke 9:1-6 -- Luke 10:1-12 involved many more than the Twelve in almost exactly the same kind of commission

Acts 20:28 (amongst others) - In any Lutheran church I've been in that had "elders" (see Acts 20:17) they were lay people.

then you have passages that deal with the (mediate) call to the Office of the Holy Ministry such as:

Acts 1:23-26
Based in the criteria given in vv. 21-22, none of us would qualify for that "Office of the Holy Ministry."

Acts 6:1-6 Ironically, one of those selected to "wait on tables" (so that the apostles could give attention to prayer and the ministry of the word) was the first to be martyred for performing miracles and preaching the Word. Perhaps with a perverted kind of logic, some might claim that the stoning of Stephen was because of God's judgment against this "deacon" who overstepped his authority and was preaching the Word rather than just distributing food (and/or money).

Acts 9:1-19 Are you suggesting that all clergy need to have a Damascus Road event to be qualified for the Office of the Holy Ministry?

Acts 11:25-26 There's no indication that Barnabas was anything but a committed lay person at this point. Even the laying on of hands on Paul by Ananias is seen more as an act of healing and perhaps confirmation of his new relationship with God. The "ordination-type" laying on of hands for Barnabas and Paul doesn't occur until Acts 13:2-3 -- after they have returned from their mission.

Acts 13:1-3 If that's the act that "set them apart" for the Office of Holy Ministry, what were they doing preaching and teaching in Antioch?

Acts 14:21-23 Again, the only Lutheran tradition of elders that I know of, is with lay people. (In the Presbyterian church, elders are ordained for life.)

II Corinthians 5:18-20 When Paul had Timothy accompany him, he had him circumcised (Acts 16:1-2). There's nothing in Acts about Timothy receiving the laying on of hands. It is also clear that Silvanus also preached to the Corinthians (2 Cor 1:19). When did he enter the office of Holy Ministry?

I Corinthians 12:28 Different gifts, one Spirit -- one baptism. There's also no indication that any of those "parts" are limited to males. We know that there were female prophets in Corinth.

I Timothy 4:14 Pretty much the same thing we do at confirmation.

II Timothy 1:16; 2:2 There's no indication that these "teachers" were anything but people who had the gift of teaching; just like the thousands of volunteers our churches have in our Sunday school programs.

Ephesians 4:11 -- Yup, offices given by God -- and nothing to indicate that they were for males only or only for the ordained. Especially in line with 4:7: "But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it," thus, everyone is involved in building up the body of Christ.
"The church Ö had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: The Ordination of Women
« Reply #449 on: March 07, 2011, 06:59:47 PM »
John 20:21-23 -- too bad about Thomas, guess he was stuck with the laity since he didn't receive the holy breath and the command about forgiveness.

Neither were you and I.

And he was there at Matt. 28:16-20- at the institution of the Office of the Holy Ministry, where it was given him to do.

and so forth...
« Last Edit: March 07, 2011, 07:03:25 PM by dgkirch »
Don Kirchner

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