Author Topic: The Ordination of Women  (Read 35377 times)

Scott6

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Re: The Ordination of Women
« Reply #420 on: December 24, 2010, 08:49:32 AM »
The evidence is set out in Raniero Cantalamessa, "Il Cristo 'Padre' negli scritti del II - III sec.," Rivista di storia e letteratura religiosa 3,1 (1967): 1-27. He cites the Epistula apostolorum 41; Martyrdom of Peter 10, in the Acts of Peter, Lipsius-Bonnet I 98, 3-4; Acta Ioannis 77 & 122; 2 Clement 1.4; Letter to Diognetus 9,6; Clement of Alexandria, Paed. I 6, 42,3; Pseudo-Clementine Homilies III 19,1 [GCS 43, 63.14] . . . That gets me to p. 4 of his article. He continues for 20+ pp.

He concludes as explanation that, before Christianity began to reserve "Father" to the person who is Father of Christ, it used father as it was customarily used, with reference to the nature of the divinity.

Peace,
Michael

Thanks again for this!  Good stuff!

1. Epistula Apostolorum 41: He answered and said unto us: Go and preach, and ye shall be labourers, and fathers, and ministers. We said unto him: Thou art he (or, Art thou he) that shalt preach by us. (Lord, thou art our father. Eth.) Then answered he us, saying: Be not (or, Are not ye) all fathers or all masters. (Are then all fathers, or all servants, or all masters? Eth.) We said unto him: Lord, thou art he that saidst unto us: Call no man your father upon earth, for one is your Father, which is in heaven, and your master. Wherefore sayest thou now unto us: Ye shall be fathers of many children, and servants and masters? He answered and said unto us: According as ye have said (Ye have rightly said, Eth.). For verily I say unto you: whosoever shall hear you and believe on me, shall receive of you the light of the seal through me, and baptism through me: ye shall be fathers and servants and masters.

2. Martyrdom of Peter 10 (from the Acts of Peter): <Couldn't find the reference in a quick check, sorry>

3. Acts of John 77: And John, filled with great gladness and perceiving the whole spectacle of the salvation of man, said: What thy power is, Lord Jesu Christ, I know not, bewildered as I am at thy much compassion and boundless long-suffering. O what a greatness that came down into bondage! O unspeakable liberty brought into slavery by us! O incomprehensible glory that is come unto us! thou that hast kept the dead tabernacle safe from insult; that hast redeemed the man that stained himself with blood and chastened the soul of him that would defile the corruptible body; Father that hast had pity and compassion on the man that cared not for thee; We glorify thee, and praise and bless and thank thy great goodness and long-suffering, O holy Jesu, for thou only art God, and none else: whose is the might that cannot be conspired against, now and world without end. Amen.

Acts of John 81 (for comparison): And when she had clothed herself, she turned and saw Fortunatus lying, and said unto John: Father, let this man also rise, even if he did assay to become my betrayer.

4. 2 Clement 1.4: For [Christ] graciously bestowed light upon us.  Like a father, he called us children.


5. Epistle to Diognetus 9.6: ...for both reasons he has wanted us to believe in his kindness, to consider him our nurse, father, teacher, counselor, physician, mind, light, honor, glory, strength, and life, and to have no concern over what to wear or eat.

6. Clement of Alexandria, Paed I.6.42: The Word is everything to His little ones, both father and mother, educator and nurse.

7. Clement of Alexandria, Paed I.6.43: [I'm unsure if this is the reference in mind] Therefore, we fly trustfully to the 'care-banishing breast' of God the Father; the breast that is the Word, who is the only one who can truly bestow on us the milk of love.

8. Pseudo-Clementine Homilies III 19,1: On this account, I say, He Himself, rising from His seat as a father for his children, proclaiming the things which from the beginning were delivered in secret to the worthy, extending mercy even to the Gentiles, and compassionating the souls of all, neglected His own kindred.

9. Melito, in Pascha 46-7, ib. 3: <Couldn't find the reference in a quick check, sorry>

10. Clem Alex Protrept. 10. 110.3: [I'm unsure if this is the reference in mind] The Lord tries you, that “you may choose life.” He counsels you as a father to obey God. “For if ye hear Me,” He says, “and be willing, ye shall eat the good things of the land...

11. Hippolytus, c. Noet. 13: If, then, the Word is sent by Jesus Christ, the will of the Father is Jesus Christ.



There's a smattering of the references.  Some observations:

A. "Father" as metaphor or image (i.e. "like a father"): 4, 5, 6, 8, 10

B. "Father" as formal address: 3.  Note the parallel where John is addressed as "Father" in the Acts of John, so this is an honorific that can be applied to many people and is not restricted as some type of formal title for Jesus.

C. "Father" as descriptor of a relation: 1.  Here, though, it appears in an Ethiopic variant and is, further, extended to apply to all the disciples who are now termed "fathers."

D. Jesus / the Son as part or related to the Father via inter-trinitarian terminology, but not identified as the "Father": 7, 11

So it really wasn't used as a title or a proper name for Jesus, though the word "father" was used in reference to Jesus a number of times, mostly metaphorically or as a matter of formal address, similar to the early practice of addressing people as kyrios (Lord) which simply means, "sir" rather than a reference to the Almighty.

This is different than pais language, for example, in early Christian literature where it is used more as a formal title applicable to the Son.

But in a personal message sent to me giving me additional references, Fr. Slusser had this great line: "The notion that we are begotten by the one who has given us new life, that is, by Jesus Christ, is a true and fruitful insight. He is not only our 'brother.'"  To which I say, "Amen, and amen!"
« Last Edit: December 24, 2010, 08:53:38 AM by Scott Yakimow »

Dave Benke

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Re: The Ordination of Women
« Reply #421 on: December 24, 2010, 09:09:51 AM »
Thanks, Fr. Slusser and Scott.  Very illuminating.  The analogoug and metaphorical nature of fatherhood (and maternal/paternal in several instances is apparent.

Blessed Eve of the Nativity!

Dave Benke

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Re: The Ordination of Women
« Reply #422 on: December 24, 2010, 10:31:15 AM »
Also, we need to avoid the idea that we call God "father" because this is an extrapolation of an earthly father - that is, we tend to understand God in terms of human relational categories.  But this is theology of glory and puts us in bondage to the abstract - as does Feuerbach with his "Fatherhood of God."  In contrast, Scripture teaches that God IS father and earthly fathers share in (but not completely) his image, as earthly marriage is an image of the TRUE MARRIAGE that is between Christ and His Church.

Just my two cents worth.


Thanks, Pr. Eckstein. Generally, this is what I was getting at in acquiescing to the idea of Father, in a sense, being understood by analogy, i.e., words are analogous to their previous use. I was thinking of Voelz' hermeneutics class. As he states in his book, "...when a sound or sight symbol is encountered by a receptor (i.e., hearer, reader), a mental concept is elicited from the memory world of that receptor." It works both ways. We use words via how we've seen them used in the past by others.

Yes, you are a father but, in a sense, you are a father only by analogy or extrapolation to your dear, sainted father, who is a father analogous or by extrapolation to his father, etc., back to Adam, who fathered/begat Seth, to The Father, who begat the Son from eternity, Almighty Creator of Adam and all heaven and earth, "one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all." So, hardly a mere metaphor.

« Last Edit: December 24, 2010, 11:58:23 AM by dgkirch »
Don Kirchner

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Scott6

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Re: The Ordination of Women
« Reply #423 on: December 24, 2010, 11:56:50 AM »
Also, we need to avoid the idea that we call God "father" because this is an extrapolation of an earthly father - that is, we tend to understand God in terms of human relational categories.  But this is theology of glory and puts us in bondage to the abstract - as does Feuerbach with his "Fatherhood of God."  In contrast, Scripture teaches that God IS father and earthly fathers share in (but not completely) his image, as earthly marriage is an image of the TRUE MARRIAGE that is between Christ and His Church.

Just my two cents worth.


Thanks, Pr. Eckstein. Generally, this is what I was getting at in acquiescing to the idea of Father, in a sense, being understood by analogy, i.e., words are analogous to their previous use. I was thinking of Voelz' hermeneutics class. As he states in his book, "...when a sound or sight symbol is encountered by a receptor (i.e., hearer, reader), a mental concept is elicited from the memory world of that receptor." It works both ways. We use words via how we've seen them used in the past by others.

Oh, I'm sorry.  When I was speaking of analogy, the archetype is the Father as shown by Scripture in just the way Tom put it above.  We understand our own fatherhood in light of God the Father of which "Father" is most properly used.  We don't understand God's Fatherhood by looking at human fatherhood.  Just as we don't look to human marriage to understand Christ's relation to the Church but rather to Christ's relation to the Church to understand human marriage.

Sorry if I was unclear on my point.


Donald_Kirchner

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Re: The Ordination of Women
« Reply #424 on: December 24, 2010, 11:59:31 AM »
Thanks and agreed, Pr. Yakimow.

A blessed Nativity!
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but itís not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Vern

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Re: The Ordination of Women
« Reply #425 on: February 20, 2011, 01:43:23 PM »
Our Church voted today to call The Reverend Cynthia Bullock as our new Pastor. It was a unanimous vote to call her. She is an exceptional Preacher and a very delightful person.

We look forward to working with her.

Vernon Jorgensen :)

grabau

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Re: The Ordination of Women
« Reply #426 on: February 24, 2011, 12:30:41 PM »
Was Paul a "very delightful person"? grabau

peterm

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Re: The Ordination of Women
« Reply #427 on: February 24, 2011, 02:25:39 PM »
He may have been thought so by some, we don't know...some may also have thought the other way.   ;D  There were some in my first parish who thought I had the makings of a good preacher and was also a very nice boy, and publically said so.  They were in their nineties and sure that I was waaay to young to be a pastor (26) but were willing to concede that almost everyone was younger than they were.  Now that I serve in long term care "nice boy" is making the rounds again.
Rev. Peter Morlock- ELCA pastor serving two congregations in WIS

Dave Benke

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Re: The Ordination of Women
« Reply #428 on: February 24, 2011, 06:08:05 PM »
Paul, like Moses, was responsible for a murder.  So maybe you could call him homicidal.  And depending on your mood towards him, you might call him a homicidal maniac.   But a delightful one, nonetheless. 

Grabau, are we trying to make a point there somewhere?  Are we looking for pastors NOT to be delightful persons?  Are we favoring grumpy?  Dopey?  Jerky? 

Winsome is the word used at the bureaucratic level.  We are looking for pastors who winsomely bring the Gospel to the people of God.  Paul was the epitome of "win-some," being all things to all people so that by all means he might save some.  Apparently he had some flexibility of approach.  Winsome.

Dave Benke

Vern

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Re: The Ordination of Women
« Reply #429 on: February 25, 2011, 02:31:30 PM »
The reason I said that Pastor Bullock is a delightful person is that the last pair of Pastors we had were NOT delightful people. I, therefore: look forward to her ministry with us.

edoughty

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Re: The Ordination of Women
« Reply #430 on: February 25, 2011, 07:09:33 PM »
The reason I said that Pastor Bullock is a delightful person is that the last pair of Pastors we had were NOT delightful people. I, therefore: look forward to her ministry with us.
Congrats to you and your congregation, Vernon!


Vern

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Re: The Ordination of Women
« Reply #431 on: March 06, 2011, 02:04:18 PM »
Today was the first Sunday for our new Pastor Cynthia Bullock.
She preached a very wonderful sermon on the Transfiguration with more emotion and expressionism than I've seen in many a year. The entire service was good, but capped off at the end when she asked the kids to come up before the blessing. She then talked to them about Lent, about inside and outside voices and then said that with Lent coming we needed to be more quiet until Easter, so we were going to "bury" our alleluia banner for awhile. After getting rousing alleluias from the kids and the congregation she had the kids carry the banner out.

In case you hadn't noticed I was VERY impressed!!!!!

Vernon Jorgensen ;D

peter_speckhard

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Re: The Ordination of Women
« Reply #432 on: March 06, 2011, 02:10:09 PM »
Vernon, I'm glad you had a good service this morning. But bear in mind that opposition to the ordination of women is in no way related to how impressive a preacher or person a woman mght be.

Dan Fienen

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Re: The Ordination of Women
« Reply #433 on: March 06, 2011, 03:17:35 PM »
If the primary argument against the ordination of women is that they cannot do the job, the argument looses.  Not many men can do the job, and it seems that some women can.  The argument must be not can they but should they.

Dan
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Vern

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Re: The Ordination of Women
« Reply #434 on: March 06, 2011, 03:39:19 PM »
I repeat my statement from awhile back: Who were the first PEOPLE told to announce that Christ had risen from the grave?