Author Topic: Some changes afoot  (Read 18578 times)

mariemeyer

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 4320
    • View Profile
Re: Some changes afoot
« Reply #240 on: April 11, 2011, 07:55:09 PM »
It's actually very easy to resist the temptation to engage in excess zeal in presenting your own opinion or take on a subject. Just stop caring. Stop telling yourself that any of this matters. Stop believing that there is such a thing as right and wrong, or correct and incorrect. Just embrace the idea that there are no absolutes, every opinion is just as good and valid as every other, and that nothing at all really matters.



George, there is more than one topic about which I care deeply. I also believe there is such a thing as right and wrong and disagree with the idea that every opinion is as good and valid as any other opinion.   This does not mean that I can ever stop guarding against my natural inclination to justify and defend myself as well as the degree to which I am prone to self-deception.  Think about it!

Marie

George Erdner

  • Guest
Re: Some changes afoot
« Reply #241 on: April 11, 2011, 10:51:11 PM »
Quote
It's actually very easy to resist the temptation to engage in excess zeal in presenting your own opinion or take on a subject. Just stop caring. Stop telling yourself that any of this matters. Stop believing that there is such a thing as right and wrong, or correct and incorrect. Just embrace the idea that there are no absolutes, every opinion is just as good and valid as every other, and that nothing at all really matters.


George, there is more than one topic about which I care deeply. I also believe there is such a thing as right and wrong and disagree with the idea that every opinion is as good and valid as any other opinion.   This does not mean that I can ever stop guarding against my natural inclination to justify and defend myself as well as the degree to which I am prone to self-deception.  Think about it!

Marie

I have thought about it, long and hard. Maybe some people can care about something deeply, yet not feel inclined to speak up about it. I'm not one of those people. The only things I can restrain myself from expressing (and defending) an opinion are things I don't care about. And so, I've decided to stop caring.

Coach-Rev

  • Guest
Re: Some changes afoot
« Reply #242 on: April 12, 2011, 08:32:27 AM »
I'm attempting to back off, Scott, I am attempting. But get a little perspective.
You want negative?
Read Mr. Erdner. Read Pastor Uttenreither. Read Pastor Buechler. Read Coach/Rev. Read Pastor Kliner. Read Lutherman. Read Pastor Bohler. Read Pastor Copeck. Read the others who wallow in the "misery," either their own or that of the church.
Pastor Fienen and Mr. Gehlhausen aren't totally negative, but they ain't a bucket of sunshine, either, and I generally come away feeling the slap on my face.
Pastor Awtry smiles and smiles and smiles (as in Hamlet Act I, scene v) but I still see what the young Dane saw.
And such is the response to my "helpful corrections."
You think only folks who disagree with me have left this forum? Think again.
Attempting. I am attempting.



Glad I made the cut, Charles.  I have never whined about my soon to be former synodical affiliation.  I have faithfully attempted to pull it back from what I believe to be the wrong direction for 20 years now, to no avail, and I have pointed out what I believe to be that wrong direction.  But as I believe has been pointed out here by others, you have continually failed to not only see that, but challenge my (or any other's) arguments.

Now, as to the complaints against Charles, though I would never even call him to fill in on pulpit supply based on my experiences with him here,  I have never once complained to the moderators about him, or anyone on this forum, for that matter.  We're all adults, even when we (I include myself in this as well) sometimes don't act like it, and I do not feel the need to "tattle" on others.  I have, however,  commented publicly a couple of times on what I perceived to be his insulting and derogatory attitude. (which, FWIW, is the Biblical response to perceived conflict)

I for one would love to see a new thread entitled "excerpts from complaints to the moderators about Charles."  I would find it thoroughly entertaining.   :D
« Last Edit: April 12, 2011, 10:34:47 AM by Coach-Rev »

dkeener

  • Guest
Re: Some changes afoot
« Reply #243 on: April 12, 2011, 08:41:49 AM »
Quote
It's actually very easy to resist the temptation to engage in excess zeal in presenting your own opinion or take on a subject. Just stop caring. Stop telling yourself that any of this matters. Stop believing that there is such a thing as right and wrong, or correct and incorrect. Just embrace the idea that there are no absolutes, every opinion is just as good and valid as every other, and that nothing at all really matters.


George, there is more than one topic about which I care deeply. I also believe there is such a thing as right and wrong and disagree with the idea that every opinion is as good and valid as any other opinion.   This does not mean that I can ever stop guarding against my natural inclination to justify and defend myself as well as the degree to which I am prone to self-deception.  Think about it!

Marie

I have thought about it, long and hard. Maybe some people can care about something deeply, yet not feel inclined to speak up about it. I'm not one of those people. The only things I can restrain myself from expressing (and defending) an opinion are things I don't care about. And so, I've decided to stop caring.


I think the point is that sometimes our priorities shift in the heat of the discussion. We may start off "caring" about the particular topic of a thread but may discover that in the give and take our goal has shifted and we now "care" more about winning the argument, or getting the other persons goat, then we do in stating a clear case. This is the self deception Marie is talking about. We focus so much on the speck in others eye that we do not see the log in our own.  That log can keep us from seeing (or even entertaining the notion) that we may at times be wrong. A good indication of when this is happening is to look at the tone of a post as well as it's content. So the solution is not to "Stop Caring" but rather to care enough to be honest in ourselves.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2011, 08:46:27 AM by dkeener »

Coach-Rev

  • Guest
Re: Some changes afoot
« Reply #244 on: April 12, 2011, 10:46:38 AM »
It's actually very easy to resist the temptation to engage in excess zeal in presenting your own opinion or take on a subject. Just stop caring. Stop telling yourself that any of this matters. Stop believing that there is such a thing as right and wrong, or correct and incorrect. Just embrace the idea that there are no absolutes, every opinion is just as good and valid as every other, and that nothing at all really matters.

It's not really so much a question of being convinced that one is right about anything, it's a matter of believing that there is such a thing as "right". Once one rejects the idea of the existence of "right", then one will never be tempted to want to persuade others that one is right.

I thought you were being sarcastic or making commentary on the sad state of affairs among protestantism in general, but after your followup post, was I wrong?

George Erdner

  • Guest
Re: Some changes afoot
« Reply #245 on: April 12, 2011, 01:12:04 PM »
It's actually very easy to resist the temptation to engage in excess zeal in presenting your own opinion or take on a subject. Just stop caring. Stop telling yourself that any of this matters. Stop believing that there is such a thing as right and wrong, or correct and incorrect. Just embrace the idea that there are no absolutes, every opinion is just as good and valid as every other, and that nothing at all really matters.

It's not really so much a question of being convinced that one is right about anything, it's a matter of believing that there is such a thing as "right". Once one rejects the idea of the existence of "right", then one will never be tempted to want to persuade others that one is right.

I thought you were being sarcastic or making commentary on the sad state of affairs among protestantism in general, but after your followup post, was I wrong?

I was not intentionally being sarcastic. Given the number of people who regard being wishy-washy as a virtue, and who kvetch about those of us who have strongly held convictions that we care about as being "disruptive", and the near total lack of defense of letting one's strongly held conviction guide their communication, I've decided that I should change my mind about having strongly held convictions. I am making a deliberate effort to not care about things one way or another.

peterm

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 831
    • View Profile
Re: Some changes afoot
« Reply #246 on: April 13, 2011, 11:51:59 AM »
I want to jump in and say here, that as one of those whom George has at times catagorized as wishy washy, I need to point out to George, Charles and the rest of us as well that it is not so much WHAT you say as it is HOW you say what you say and the tone that comes across to the one you are addressing.  Yes I know your "zeal for the Lord of Hosts" is strong, but if this is a place where we are to be in conversation, and I hope that it is I have learned much here; We ALL need to be a little more careful about how we respond to eachother and not be so quick to jump on our respective bandwagons all the time.  (my .02)
Rev. Peter Morlock- ELCA pastor serving two congregations in WIS

Mike Gehlhausen

  • Guest
Re: Some changes afoot
« Reply #247 on: April 13, 2011, 12:06:58 PM »
I want to jump in and say here, that as one of those whom George has at times catagorized as wishy washy, I need to point out to George, Charles and the rest of us as well that it is not so much WHAT you say as it is HOW you say what you say and the tone that comes across to the one you are addressing.  Yes I know your "zeal for the Lord of Hosts" is strong, but if this is a place where we are to be in conversation, and I hope that it is I have learned much here; We ALL need to be a little more careful about how we respond to eachother and not be so quick to jump on our respective bandwagons all the time.  (my .02)

Good words.

For my own part, I tend to end up interacting at the same level of rhetoric.

If someone is involved in a discussion who will answer questions and give considered analysis, then I'll take a more laid-back inquisitive approach.

But if no one like that is around, then it often seems like I need to react and refute silliness that is put out there in hopes a more civilized post emerges in the mix to latch on to.

Even if that more civilized post takes me to task for the poor attitude of my discussion.  :-[

Mike

George Erdner

  • Guest
Re: Some changes afoot
« Reply #248 on: April 13, 2011, 04:42:40 PM »
I want to jump in and say here, that as one of those whom George has at times catagorized as wishy washy, I need to point out to George, Charles and the rest of us as well that it is not so much WHAT you say as it is HOW you say what you say and the tone that comes across to the one you are addressing.  Yes I know your "zeal for the Lord of Hosts" is strong, but if this is a place where we are to be in conversation, and I hope that it is I have learned much here; We ALL need to be a little more careful about how we respond to eachother and not be so quick to jump on our respective bandwagons all the time.  (my .02)

When people kvetch about how things are said rather than what is said, but cannot point to specific examples, I tend to just ignore the kvetching.

For example, in this thread, someone kvetched about me "name calling", so I asked for him (or anyone else, since all posts in here are to everyone, regardless of who is being replied to), and there was no response. So, you can kvetch about HOW I say what I say, but since I do not agree that how I say what I say is so over-the-top that anyone other than someone who is excessively thin-skinned might be offended, in the absence of further explanation and/or examples, I'm not even sure what it is that you are kvetching about.

peter_speckhard

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 17489
    • View Profile
Re: Some changes afoot
« Reply #249 on: April 13, 2011, 04:44:19 PM »
Go back and delete all of your posts that include the word "kvetch" and you'll have come a long way toward understanding what people appreciate and what they don't about your posts.

peterm

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 831
    • View Profile
Re: Some changes afoot
« Reply #250 on: April 13, 2011, 05:27:12 PM »
George...if you want specific examples go back and look at the "stay of leave" threads from earlier this year, and last, but even here your response to my two cents proves my point.
Rev. Peter Morlock- ELCA pastor serving two congregations in WIS

George Erdner

  • Guest
Re: Some changes afoot
« Reply #251 on: April 13, 2011, 05:33:21 PM »
Go back and delete all of your posts that include the word "kvetch" and you'll have come a long way toward understanding what people appreciate and what they don't about your posts.

Are you saying that by using that friendly, non-pretentious slang term for "complain", that renders the rest of what I say invalid? Are you saying that being casual and informal makes my comments unacceptable?

Please don't anyone say that I'm "rejecting" an answer that I do not like. I genuinely don't see how using "kvetch" instead of complain should cause anyone heartburn. Maybe it's so obvious to everyone else that they think I'm playing some sort of game. I'm not. I do not see how using the word "kvetch" should offend anyone.

George...if you want specific examples go back and look at the "stay of leave" threads from earlier this year, and last, but even here your response to my two cents proves my point.

Sorry, but you've lost me.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2011, 05:53:25 PM by George Erdner »

Rev. Kevin Scheuller

  • Guest
Re: Some changes afoot
« Reply #252 on: April 13, 2011, 06:07:14 PM »
Oy vey!  I do miss the days when people recognized the good humor and humility that is normally evident in the use of Yiddish. 


James Gustafson

  • Guest
Re: Some changes afoot
« Reply #253 on: April 13, 2011, 08:20:56 PM »
Go back and delete all of your posts that include the word "kvetch" and you'll have come a long way toward understanding what people appreciate and what they don't about your posts.

Are you saying that by using that friendly, non-pretentious slang term for "complain", that renders the rest of what I say invalid? Are you saying that being casual and informal makes my comments unacceptable?

Please don't anyone say that I'm "rejecting" an answer that I do not like. I genuinely don't see how using "kvetch" instead of complain should cause anyone heartburn. Maybe it's so obvious to everyone else that they think I'm playing some sort of game. I'm not. I do not see how using the word "kvetch" should offend anyone.

I think it's not the word Kvetch itself, its the type of sentence, and topic of said sentence, where the word kvetch is used when the situation presents itself.   If that word is being used its more than likely that the topic of the sentence is not pleasant.

George Erdner

  • Guest
Re: Some changes afoot
« Reply #254 on: April 13, 2011, 08:27:01 PM »
Go back and delete all of your posts that include the word "kvetch" and you'll have come a long way toward understanding what people appreciate and what they don't about your posts.

Are you saying that by using that friendly, non-pretentious slang term for "complain", that renders the rest of what I say invalid? Are you saying that being casual and informal makes my comments unacceptable?

Please don't anyone say that I'm "rejecting" an answer that I do not like. I genuinely don't see how using "kvetch" instead of complain should cause anyone heartburn. Maybe it's so obvious to everyone else that they think I'm playing some sort of game. I'm not. I do not see how using the word "kvetch" should offend anyone.

I think it's not the word Kvetch itself, its the type of sentence, and topic of said sentence, where the word kvetch is used when the situation presents itself.   If that word is being used its more than likely that the topic of the sentence is not pleasant.


You are correct. Responding to vague complaints about subjective things like "tone" is not pleasant.