Author Topic: Some changes afoot  (Read 18068 times)

Charles_Austin

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Re: Some changes afoot
« Reply #45 on: November 28, 2010, 08:30:53 PM »
Pastor Fienen writes
Perhaps we should establish a quota system.  After all, look how much that has helped some church bodies.  Take the number of good ELCA posters, Pr. Austin could help determine who the good ELCA posters are and from that allocate half as many slots for ungood ELCA posters and non-ELCA posters,
I comment:
Since I have always, in every place where I had a voice, opposed quotas and still think they are unacceptable and sometime stupid, I would refuse to have anything to do with quotas here.

Pastor Fienen:
 again, perhaps Pr. Austin could help in the winnowing process since he is so good at detecting those whose posting is unacceptable, or conduct a lottery for those slots (giving preference to Lutheran Forum subscribers) and kick the rest off.
Me:
A cheap shot. But I'll put a whimsy label on it nonetheless.

Pastor Fienen:
 That would lessen the overload in storage, lower Pr. Austins blood pressure and ensure a more respectful Forum experience.
Me:
My blood pressure is just fine. Couple of pills a day, decent exercise and a slight cutback on certain foods and I'm in decent shape.

Pastor Fienen:
Or Charles and Brian could go out a recruit more ELCA posters.
Me:
Nope. The ALPB "finders' fee" is way too low. Among other reasons.

Evangel

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Re: Some changes afoot
« Reply #46 on: November 28, 2010, 09:03:11 PM »
I would suggest limiting the number of posts a person can make in a week to 21-three a day, this not only encourages people to actually stay on topic it also helps to ensure the mental health of readers and contributors alike. Archive somewhere off this site things over a year old and keep the number of topics to no more than fifty at a time unless all have over a hundred hits in a month. If people rant and rave nedlessly and endlessly call the producers of Mission Impossible and see how to get their computers to self-destruct.

Post Per Day Limit mod from Simple Machines Forum user site.
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SmithL

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Re: Some changes afoot
« Reply #47 on: November 28, 2010, 09:33:04 PM »
Would it help if we all typed slower?
 :D

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Some changes afoot
« Reply #48 on: November 28, 2010, 11:24:51 PM »
I would suggest limiting the number of posts a person can make in a week to 21-three a day, this not only encourages people to actually stay on topic it also helps to ensure the mental health of readers and contributors alike. Archive somewhere off this site things over a year old and keep the number of topics to no more than fifty at a time unless all have over a hundred hits in a month. If people rant and rave nedlessly and endlessly call the producers of Mission Impossible and see how to get their computers to self-destruct.

Post Per Day Limit mod from Simple Machines Forum user site.

I was part of another online discussion group that tried limiting posts per day. What happened was fewer posts, but longer ones. Rather than giving quick replies to every question I was asked, I saved them up for one long post. Most of the other frequent posters did the same thing.
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Erma S. Wolf

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Re: Some changes afoot
« Reply #49 on: November 28, 2010, 11:57:48 PM »
Perhaps we should establish a quota system.  After all, look how much that has helped some church bodies.  Take the number of good ELCA posters, Pr. Austin could help determine who the good ELCA posters are and from that allocate half as many slots for ungood ELCA posters and non-ELCA posters, again, perhaps Pr. Austin could help in the winnowing process since he is so good at detecting those whose posting is unacceptable, or conduct a lottery for those slots (giving preference to Lutheran Forum subscribers) and kick the rest off.  That would lessen the overload in storage, lower Pr. Austins blood pressure and ensure a more respectful Forum experience.

Ooh!  Ooh!  I'm female, clergy and a minority (green-eyed Scots-Irish Lutheran surrounded by Norweigian/Americans)!  So that should count for extra in the quota system!  (I've decided to quit fighting quotas, and embrace them as long as it provides benefits to me and my causes.)   ;D

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Some changes afoot
« Reply #50 on: November 29, 2010, 12:35:21 AM »
We are not a church body that tries to create unity by confessional agreement. We have diversity within the limits imposed by our constitutional Confession of Faith.

 ::)
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Keith Falk

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Re: Some changes afoot
« Reply #51 on: November 29, 2010, 12:39:52 AM »
I did a quick count, as I am ofttimes wont to do. My numbers might be off by three or four, but not much more than that.
I think I counted 68 people on this forum with more than 500 posts. I did not include the moderators.
Of those 68, five are consistently supportive of the ELCA, at least to some extent. But one of those has virtually dropped out of the discussion, disgusted with the tenor of the conversation (this person told me). Another seems to be slipping away from the discussion and one has relatively few recent postings.
Four others are apparently in the ELCA, but strongly - one might say terminally - critical of that church body.
The rest are not in the ELCA, either in the LCMS (most of them) or have left or are leaving the ELCA (and in at least one case the LCMS) because of doctrinal disputes. Virtually all of those 60+ believe the ELCA is heterodox, apostate, heretical or worse and say so frequently.
That is the "balance" in this forum.
Just an observation.


And, as I am ofttimes wont to do, I will go about to ask you who you place into each camp.  By my count, being rather generous as to who I don't know for sure if they are still in ELCA (or ever were), I count the following of the 64 who have more than 500 posts:

Solidly behind ELCA almost all the time:  Stoffregen, Austin, Petty, Doughty, vicarbob, Krauser, SCPO (Senior Chief) for a total of 7 - though, I grant, you may place one or two in a different category

In the ELCA (at least listed on our roster per the ELCA Find A Person), but not necessarily solidly behind the ELCA as consistently as List A:  A Catholic Lutheran (Kliner), RevSteve (BLiss), Mel Harris, G. Johnson, Knudson, racin_jason, Falk, Hahn, Bennett, Davidson, Wolf, Charlton, Dadoo (Kruse), Tibbetts, Erdner

That's 22 right there, out of the 62 who aren't moderators.  I don't know on that list of ELCA people who are going or not - maybe you have some insider knowledge on that point.  I do know that every time you count your list, the count is inaccurate and misleading... and the brush which is used is consistently too large.

Just an observation.   ::)
Rev. Keith Falk, STS

Charles_Austin

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Re: Some changes afoot
« Reply #52 on: November 29, 2010, 04:14:06 AM »
Pastor Falk writes:
Solidly behind ELCA almost all the time:  Stoffregen, Austin, Petty, Doughty, vicarbob, Krauser, SCPO (Senior Chief) for a total of 7 - though, I grant, you may place one or two in a different category
I comment:
Thanks for the help. Your count may have been more detailed than my quick run through the members list. But, I must note...
edoughty - infrequent participant by my first count, but more frequent than I thought,
vicarbob - infrequent participant, can't always tell where he stands
Krauser - virtually not in the discussion, only on about once a month
SCPO - almost opted out, only six brief posts since August
Petty - infrequent participant, short blasts usually, not much more
So, in terms of generally regular participants, that leaves three, Pastor Stoffregen, this humble correspondent, and edoughty as "solidly behind" the ELCA, and the others as "solidly behind," (maybe) but not regularly present here.

Pastor Falk writes:
In the ELCA (at least listed on our roster per the ELCA Find A Person), but not necessarily solidly behind the ELCA as consistently as List A:  A Catholic Lutheran (Kliner), RevSteve (BLiss), Mel Harris, G. Johnson, Knudson, racin_jason, Falk, Hahn, Bennett, Davidson, Wolf, Charlton, Dadoo (Kruse), Tibbetts, Erdner
I note:
"In the ELCA," perhaps, but...
    A Catholic Lutheran, RevSteve, Marshall Hahn are sharply critical, sometimes hostile, some to the point of making me think that they are on their way out or wondering how, given what their consciences tell them, they are able to stay in.
    So far as I know, dcharlton, Wolf, Tibbetts and some of the others remain "in", in responsible ways, but strongly critical.
    Mr. Erdner despises the ELCA, regularly maligns its leaders and virtually every one of its programs. The tone of his postings has earned him the dreaded ban. He has said he will leave as soon as he finds a congregation to his liking.

So while we can quibble about just where some people "stand," I still contend that among those 64 are only three or four regular participants who strongly support and defend the ELCA, three or four who seem to be staying "in the ELCA," though they are strong critics. The rest, almost never a kind word, almost always sharp, often nasty words about the ELCA. Therefore, I contend contra pastor Falk, that my analysis of the participants here is generally on target.

BTW, while we in the ELCA believe the LCMS is wrong with regard to women pastors, communion practices, and ecumenical relations, we see nothing here that berates them for their views that parallels the hammering the ELCA gets, day after day, from LCMS participants here about what we do.

But in the grand scheme of things.... maybe we should all just go and bake cupcakes or play the flute.

Just an observation.

« Last Edit: November 29, 2010, 04:21:48 AM by Charles_Austin »

Revbert

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Re: Some changes afoot
« Reply #53 on: November 29, 2010, 07:35:50 AM »
Ah, Charles,. I hate to rain on your parade, but unless you are speaking of the ELCA from an official policy standpoint, there are still many in the ELCA who aren't thrilled with the idea of women pastors.

A sad thing, but still factual.

Art
(who thinks signing posts when my name is beside it is redundant, and will stop doing it, even if Charles thinks it should be done)

Charles_Austin

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Re: Some changes afoot
« Reply #54 on: November 29, 2010, 08:19:36 AM »
Art Hebbeler writes:
Ah, Charles,. I hate to rain on your parade, but unless you are speaking of the ELCA from an official policy standpoint, there are still many in the ELCA who aren't thrilled with the idea of women pastors.

I respond:
You would have to provide me with some evidence that - after more than 35 years and several female bishops - "many" still disapprove of women pastors. Wishful thinking on your part, I believe.

Coach-Rev

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Re: Some changes afoot
« Reply #55 on: November 29, 2010, 08:19:54 AM »
Pastor Falk writes:
Solidly behind ELCA almost all the time:  Stoffregen, Austin, Petty, Doughty, vicarbob, Krauser, SCPO (Senior Chief) for a total of 7 - though, I grant, you may place one or two in a different category
I comment:
Thanks for the help. Your count may have been more detailed than my quick run through the members list. But, I must note...
edoughty - infrequent participant by my first count, but more frequent than I thought,
vicarbob - infrequent participant, can't always tell where he stands
Krauser - virtually not in the discussion, only on about once a month
SCPO - almost opted out, only six brief posts since August
Petty - infrequent participant, short blasts usually, not much more
So, in terms of generally regular participants, that leaves three, Pastor Stoffregen, this humble correspondent, and edoughty as "solidly behind" the ELCA, and the others as "solidly behind," (maybe) but not regularly present here.

Pastor Falk writes:
In the ELCA (at least listed on our roster per the ELCA Find A Person), but not necessarily solidly behind the ELCA as consistently as List A:  A Catholic Lutheran (Kliner), RevSteve (BLiss), Mel Harris, G. Johnson, Knudson, racin_jason, Falk, Hahn, Bennett, Davidson, Wolf, Charlton, Dadoo (Kruse), Tibbetts, Erdner
I note:
"In the ELCA," perhaps, but...
    A Catholic Lutheran, RevSteve, Marshall Hahn are sharply critical, sometimes hostile, some to the point of making me think that they are on their way out or wondering how, given what their consciences tell them, they are able to stay in.
    So far as I know, dcharlton, Wolf, Tibbetts and some of the others remain "in", in responsible ways, but strongly critical.
    Mr. Erdner despises the ELCA, regularly maligns its leaders and virtually every one of its programs. The tone of his postings has earned him the dreaded ban. He has said he will leave as soon as he finds a congregation to his liking.

So while we can quibble about just where some people "stand," I still contend that among those 64 are only three or four regular participants who strongly support and defend the ELCA, three or four who seem to be staying "in the ELCA," though they are strong critics. The rest, almost never a kind word, almost always sharp, often nasty words about the ELCA. Therefore, I contend contra pastor Falk, that my analysis of the participants here is generally on target.

BTW, while we in the ELCA believe the LCMS is wrong with regard to women pastors, communion practices, and ecumenical relations, we see nothing here that berates them for their views that parallels the hammering the ELCA gets, day after day, from LCMS participants here about what we do.

But in the grand scheme of things.... maybe we should all just go and bake cupcakes or play the flute.

Just an observation.



And I ask again, expecting no response from you, Charles, what does this have to do with ANYTHING on this forum?  It only consistently furthers the rifts and divisions that are already deep, painful, and festering.  As we count sides, the ELCA continues to crumble down around us...

It makes me think that Grundvig had no comprehension of the ELCA when he penned his words...

anonymously yours,

Rev. John Doe

Maryland Brian

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Re: Some changes afoot
« Reply #56 on: November 29, 2010, 08:42:32 AM »
Perhaps we should establish a quota system.  After all, look how much that has helped some church bodies.  Take the number of good ELCA posters, Pr. Austin could help determine who the good ELCA posters are and from that allocate half as many slots for ungood ELCA posters and non-ELCA posters, again, perhaps Pr. Austin could help in the winnowing process since he is so good at detecting those whose posting is unacceptable, or conduct a lottery for those slots (giving preference to Lutheran Forum subscribers) and kick the rest off.  That would lessen the overload in storage, lower Pr. Austins blood pressure and ensure a more respectful Forum experience.

Ooh!  Ooh!  I'm female, clergy and a minority (green-eyed Scots-Irish Lutheran surrounded by Norweigian/Americans)!  So that should count for extra in the quota system!  (I've decided to quit fighting quotas, and embrace them as long as it provides benefits to me and my causes.)   ;D

  Ooh!  Ooh!  And I'm an Irish Lutheran who really can't stand Lutefisk.  Not too crazy about Ole and Lena jokes either.  I think that should count for extra in the quota system too!   :D

Charles_Austin

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Re: Some changes afoot
« Reply #57 on: November 29, 2010, 09:22:25 AM »
Someone writes:
And I ask again, expecting no response from you, Charles, what does this have to do with ANYTHING on this forum? 
I write:
Surprise! You do get a response! Lucky you.
This forum is open to discuss anything, including the balance among the participants. (Had you been here longer, you would have noticed that.)

Someone writes:
It only consistently furthers the rifts and divisions that are already deep, painful, and festering.
I respond:
How does telling the truth, examining the situation, "further the rifts and divisions"? Would you rather they never be mentioned.

Someone writes:
As we count sides, the ELCA continues to crumble down around us...
I respond:
Oh, please. Spare us the over-heated rhetoric.
I noted far far far upstream that in the 1970s, the LCMS lost tens of thousands of members and remains strong (though somewhat diminished in size) today.
The ELCA as some people may want it to be, is changing, as the church always changes. It will be different tomorrow than it is today.
If you don't want it to "crumble," stop posting divisive language and do what you can to work in your synod and region for reconciliation among people who disagree. (And before the "they don't like me!" language starts, I'll say: It may not be easy, but it will be God's work.)

Pr. Terry Culler

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Re: Some changes afoot
« Reply #58 on: November 29, 2010, 09:42:30 AM »
So there are just a handful of people who will reflexively defend anything the ELCA does and there are a handful who will attack anything the ELCA does.  My question is, "so what?"  There a lot of LC-MS folks here.  There are at least a few AFLC folks here.  And I don't know how many others.  So what?  People disagree and they disagree vigorously about what is a church dividing set of decisions.  That isn't going to change.  Let's just live with it.

But as to the topic of change.  I would like to see more serious theological discussion around things other than homosexuality.  If we did that, I think we would see a great deal of change in how we react to one another.  For example, if we were to have a serious discussion as to the meaning of "Church" I think we could have some serious give and take, some serious disagreement and still a level of civility that would please even our quick on the draw moderators.
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Erma S. Wolf

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Re: Some changes afoot
« Reply #59 on: November 29, 2010, 09:48:56 AM »
Art Hebbeler writes:
Ah, Charles,. I hate to rain on your parade, but unless you are speaking of the ELCA from an official policy standpoint, there are still many in the ELCA who aren't thrilled with the idea of women pastors.

I respond:
You would have to provide me with some evidence that - after more than 35 years and several female bishops - "many" still disapprove of women pastors. Wishful thinking on your part, I believe.


   Hahahahaha! (Wiping my eyes, and getting up off the floor.)  That's a good one, Charles!  

   Trust me when I say this:  there are many and various ways of disapproving of women pastors.  And some of those who most vocally approve of women pastors are, I fear, in need of a trip to their confessor regarding their sin of being two-faced.  

   The ones I respect (both men and women in the ELCA) are those who are honest and brave enough to tell me up front that they don't believe women should be ordained to the pastoral office.  Then we can both go forward with our honest disagreement.  (And some would say i don't know anything about respecting other people's conscience.  ::))