Author Topic: ELCA Considering New Procedures for Congregations Considering Leaving the ELCA  (Read 31715 times)

Charles_Austin

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No matter what pious langauge is applied, I believe that if someone wants to minister in a church body, but consciously disconnects themselves from that church body as a "dead" institution, the word "hypocrisy" comes to mind.
One can minister to whatever crowd of people one can gather around themselves, but if that disconnection occurs, don't call yourself an ELCA pastor or the crowd an ELCA congregation. You are a drain on the rest of us and an embarrassment.

Scott6

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No matter what pious langauge is applied, I believe that if someone wants to minister in a church body, but consciously disconnects themselves from that church body as a "dead" institution, the word "hypocrisy" comes to mind.
One can minister to whatever crowd of people one can gather around themselves, but if that disconnection occurs, don't call yourself an ELCA pastor or the crowd an ELCA congregation. You are a drain on the rest of us and an embarrassment.

If you believe this, then you can't write off herchurch.

Charles_Austin

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Scott, it is not within my power or authority to "write off" Ebenezer in San Francisco or Zion in Peoria. Both are congregations which - so far as I can understand from afar - consciously maintain their connection to the ELCA and are not under discipline. I might like the congregation in Peoria better than the one in San Francisco, but...

I do not understand this personal, idiosyncratic "disfellowshipping" or excommunication that seems to be a practice within the LCMS.

Scott6

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Scott, it is not within my power or authority to "write off" Ebenezer in San Francisco or Zion in Peoria. Both are congregations which - so far as I can understand from afar - consciously maintain their connection to the ELCA and are not under discipline. I might like the congregation in Peoria better than the one in San Francisco, but...

Yes, I know it's not in your power or authority to do anything with herchurch's practice, but it is certainly within your power to understand that the fact that herchurch is not under discipline says quite a bit about the ELCA.  Those who acknowledge that have a very good point.

I do not understand this personal, idiosyncratic "disfellowshipping" or excommunication that seems to be a practice within the LCMS.

While this is for a different thread, I understand it but don't condone it.  I think it's wrong.

Maryland Brian

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One can minister to whatever crowd of people one can gather around themselves, but if that disconnection occurs, don't call yourself an ELCA pastor or the crowd an ELCA congregation. You are a drain on the rest of us and an embarrassment.


I thought you said you had no feelings about someone like me staying or going.  And that was just yesterday.   ::)

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Scott, it is not within my power or authority to "write off" Ebenezer in San Francisco or Zion in Peoria. Both are congregations which - so far as I can understand from afar - consciously maintain their connection to the ELCA and are not under discipline. I might like the congregation in Peoria better than the one in San Francisco, but...

Yes, I know it's not in your power or authority to do anything with herchurch's practice, but it is certainly within your power to understand that the fact that herchurch is not under discipline says quite a bit about the ELCA.  Those who acknowledge that have a very good point.

Yes, it says that the present and previous bishops of that synod, whose offices were 23.9 miles away from the congregation, who personally know the Pastor of the congregation, who may have even worshiped with the congregation, are in a much better position -- and have been given the authority -- to know whether or not the congregation/pastor should come under discipline than any of us making judgments from afar.

I also note that there have not been ten pastors in the synod willing to bring disciplinary charges against the pastor, nor have three congregations in that synod been willing to bring disciplinary charges against the congregation.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

DCharlton

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No matter what pious langauge is applied, I believe that if someone wants to minister in a church body, but consciously disconnects themselves from that church body as a "dead" institution, the word "hypocrisy" comes to mind.

Yes, I agree.  The same would go for those who want to minister in a church body, but have consciously disconnected themselves from the confession of faith of that church body as sexist, racist, hetero-sexist, sadistic, etc...  Doesn't  hypocrisy come  to mind in that case as well?

Now give me an example of an ELCA syodical bishop who has blessed pastors or congregations that consciously disconnect themselves from the ELCA as a "dead" institution.   Meanwhile, we have a clear example of a synod, bishops and pastors who have encouraged and blessed a congregation that rejects the confession of faith of the ELCA as sexist, racist, hetero-sexist and sadistic.
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DCharlton

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Scott, it is not within my power or authority to "write off" Ebenezer in San Francisco or Zion in Peoria. Both are congregations which - so far as I can understand from afar - consciously maintain their connection to the ELCA and are not under discipline. I might like the congregation in Peoria better than the one in San Francisco, but...

Yes, I know it's not in your power or authority to do anything with herchurch's practice, but it is certainly within your power to understand that the fact that herchurch is not under discipline says quite a bit about the ELCA.  Those who acknowledge that have a very good point.

Yes, it says that the present and previous bishops of that synod, whose offices were 23.9 miles away from the congregation, who personally know the Pastor of the congregation, who may have even worshiped with the congregation, are in a much better position -- and have been given the authority -- to know whether or not the congregation/pastor should come under discipline than any of us making judgments from afar.

I also note that there have not been ten pastors in the synod willing to bring disciplinary charges against the pastor, nor have three congregations in that synod been willing to bring disciplinary charges against the congregation.


Well, in that case, Ebenezer does represent a large portion of the ELCA.  

By the way, no one "has the authority to know" anything.  Knowing happens when we conform our minds to reality.  Kowing is a form of obedience or submission.  Perhaps you meant "the authoriity to determine", but you know as well as I do that bishops in the ELCA are loath to take on that responsibility.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2010, 12:11:43 PM by DCharlton »
David Charlton  

Was Algul Siento a divinity school?

Charles_Austin

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Pastor Hughes writes (re a recent posting of mine):
I thought you said you had no feelings about someone like me staying or going.

I comment:
Not writing about you, Pastor Hughes. Wouldn't want to incur the wrath of your lawyer wife. If you decide you fit the profile of someone in my comment, that's your interpretation.

Maryland Brian

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Pastor Hughes writes (re a recent posting of mine):
I thought you said you had no feelings about someone like me staying or going.

I comment:
Not writing about you, Pastor Hughes. Wouldn't want to incur the wrath of your lawyer wife. If you decide you fit the profile of someone in my comment, that's your interpretation.

 ::)


Pilgrim

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I comment:
Not writing about you, Pastor Hughes. Wouldn't want to incur the wrath of your lawyer wife. If you decide you fit the profile of someone in my comment, that's your interpretation.

Or in other words, "Not me, Lord, the women You gave me." or "Not me, Lord, the snake." That pesky original sin and our in-bred self-justification keep getting in the way of progress, eh?
Pr. Tim Christ, STS

Scott6

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Scott, it is not within my power or authority to "write off" Ebenezer in San Francisco or Zion in Peoria. Both are congregations which - so far as I can understand from afar - consciously maintain their connection to the ELCA and are not under discipline. I might like the congregation in Peoria better than the one in San Francisco, but...

Yes, I know it's not in your power or authority to do anything with herchurch's practice, but it is certainly within your power to understand that the fact that herchurch is not under discipline says quite a bit about the ELCA.  Those who acknowledge that have a very good point.

Yes, it says that the present and previous bishops of that synod, whose offices were 23.9 miles away from the congregation, who personally know the Pastor of the congregation, who may have even worshiped with the congregation, are in a much better position -- and have been given the authority -- to know whether or not the congregation/pastor should come under discipline than any of us making judgments from afar.

I also note that there have not been ten pastors in the synod willing to bring disciplinary charges against the pastor, nor have three congregations in that synod been willing to bring disciplinary charges against the congregation.


Thank you for strengthening my point.

Cnehring

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No matter what pious langauge is applied, I believe that if someone wants to minister in a church body, but consciously disconnects themselves from that church body as a "dead" institution, the word "hypocrisy" comes to mind.
One can minister to whatever crowd of people one can gather around themselves, but if that disconnection occurs, don't call yourself an ELCA pastor or the crowd an ELCA congregation. You are a drain on the rest of us and an embarrassment.


Just who "owns" these churches and congregations that us "hypocritical" pastors are leading? Last time I looked, I believe the Head of the Church is Christ, not some earthly institution.

Brian Stoffregen

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Scott, it is not within my power or authority to "write off" Ebenezer in San Francisco or Zion in Peoria. Both are congregations which - so far as I can understand from afar - consciously maintain their connection to the ELCA and are not under discipline. I might like the congregation in Peoria better than the one in San Francisco, but...

Yes, I know it's not in your power or authority to do anything with herchurch's practice, but it is certainly within your power to understand that the fact that herchurch is not under discipline says quite a bit about the ELCA.  Those who acknowledge that have a very good point.

Yes, it says that the present and previous bishops of that synod, whose offices were 23.9 miles away from the congregation, who personally know the Pastor of the congregation, who may have even worshiped with the congregation, are in a much better position -- and have been given the authority -- to know whether or not the congregation/pastor should come under discipline than any of us making judgments from afar.

I also note that there have not been ten pastors in the synod willing to bring disciplinary charges against the pastor, nor have three congregations in that synod been willing to bring disciplinary charges against the congregation.


Thank you for strengthening my point.

What? That you, nearly 2400 miles away, claim to know more about Ebenezer Lutheran than the folks who are only 24 miles away? That you, who have never met their pastor, knows more about her teaching and preaching, than those who know her personally?
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Maryland Brian

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Thank you for strengthening my point.

Indeed.