Author Topic: ELCA PB Mark Hanson's Town Hall 11/21/2010  (Read 6191 times)

Charles_Austin

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Re: ELCA PB Mark Hanson's Town Hall 11/21/2010
« Reply #75 on: November 24, 2010, 04:02:59 AM »
Fahrenheit 451 is about book burning. (Extra credit if you know the author without looking it up.)  If you're going to make literary references, at least get them right.
And in 1984, Big Brother is government.
Now someone show me where proposed constitutional changes relate to either (or to a world in a Robert Heinlein book or the emperor in Star Wars). {I suspect I'm going to be sorry I said that.}  ::) ::)

Dave Benke

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Re: ELCA PB Mark Hanson's Town Hall 11/21/2010
« Reply #76 on: November 24, 2010, 07:13:14 AM »

Ray Bradbury

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James Gustafson

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Re: ELCA PB Mark Hanson's Town Hall 11/21/2010
« Reply #77 on: November 24, 2010, 08:16:38 AM »
I don't think Fahrenheit 451 is a bad analogy for this discussion, if by accident or on purpose, because there is more than one way to burn a book.  In 451 Mr. Bradbury goes to great lengths to describe what happens when people and communities decide that they should start editing older works to suit themselves, to make them say what they think they should say.  If it starts with, well, "this section here doesn't really apply to us because we know better, we'll edit it out," or, "we'll just skip over this bit," or, "we don't really care for the use of that word there, this other word should be inserted and used in its stead", and the pages and words get piecemeal taken out or passed over until eventually the entire book is just better off being burned...  And then what happens to that society?  451 is a society of a world gone mad, every person a judge unto themselves, no kindness for others, no empathy for the pain they cause to others, no moral guides or standards, everyone free to do as they wish and try to find 'happiness' in their own freedom, even if that freedom leads them to find enjoyment in the misery of others (robotic dogs set loose to terrorize others for the enjoyment of the owner).  But of course they don't find true happiness, the main character in the story discovers that they have deleted the meanings when they deleted the literature and scripture to suit their wants and desires.  We can't just go back and reinterpret scripture to say what we want it to say, and use the inclusive words we want it to use, we might as well just burn the book.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2010, 08:21:20 AM by James Gustafson »

Charles_Austin

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Re: ELCA PB Mark Hanson's Town Hall 11/21/2010
« Reply #78 on: November 24, 2010, 08:30:27 AM »
That's not necessarily a bad interpretation of Fahrenheit 451, Mr. Gustafson. It is a bit more expansive than just "burning books."
But we can disagree on whether that is the situation in the ELCA.

Jeremy Loesch

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Re: ELCA PB Mark Hanson's Town Hall 11/21/2010
« Reply #79 on: November 24, 2010, 08:52:06 AM »
I understood Pastor Christ's reference to Fahrenheit 451 just fine.  And Mr. Gustafson's synapsis seemed appropriate too.  It seems to me that too many people read the Bible with a Sharpie in one hand and an exacto knife in the other so that things can be blacked out or cut out as suits their mood.  When reading the Bible, it's best to have hands folded.

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J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: ELCA PB Mark Hanson's Town Hall 11/21/2010
« Reply #80 on: November 24, 2010, 09:04:40 AM »
When reading the Bible, it's best to have hands folded.


And to read like the early Church Fathers, with the eyes of faith and a heart of love.

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DeHall

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Re: ELCA PB Mark Hanson's Town Hall 11/21/2010
« Reply #81 on: November 24, 2010, 09:54:56 AM »
I don't think Fahrenheit 451 is a bad analogy for this discussion, if by accident or on purpose, because there is more than one way to burn a book.  In 451 Mr. Bradbury goes to great lengths to describe what happens when people and communities decide that they should start editing older works to suit themselves, to make them say what they think they should say.  If it starts with, well, "this section here doesn't really apply to us because we know better, we'll edit it out," or, "we'll just skip over this bit," or, "we don't really care for the use of that word there, this other word should be inserted and used in its stead", and the pages and words get piecemeal taken out or passed over until eventually the entire book is just better off being burned...  And then what happens to that society?  451 is a society of a world gone mad, every person a judge unto themselves, no kindness for others, no empathy for the pain they cause to others, no moral guides or standards, everyone free to do as they wish and try to find 'happiness' in their own freedom, even if that freedom leads them to find enjoyment in the misery of others (robotic dogs set loose to terrorize others for the enjoyment of the owner).  But of course they don't find true happiness, the main character in the story discovers that they have deleted the meanings when they deleted the literature and scripture to suit their wants and desires.  We can't just go back and reinterpret scripture to say what we want it to say, and use the inclusive words we want it to use, we might as well just burn the book.

In Fahrenheit 451, the suppression of literature started as an attempt to minimize cultural offenses through political correctness.  IMO, it's a rather good analogy.

George Erdner

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Re: ELCA PB Mark Hanson's Town Hall 11/21/2010
« Reply #82 on: December 14, 2010, 12:36:46 AM »
In Fahrenheit 451, the suppression of literature started as an attempt to minimize cultural offenses through political correctness.  IMO, it's a rather good analogy.

Excellent point. Political correctness is, after all, an attempt to enforce politeness. It started out as an exercise in the use of euphemisms. It might offend a blind person to be called "blind", so we had to say "visually impaired". A short person became "vertically challenged". Then it spread to the gender-neutralizing of job titles, like the ridiculous "waitperson". It's easy to see how carrying that sort of thought control forward can lead to a very bad result.

However, I have to agree that 1984 is a better example than Fahrenheit 451. What we're seeing isn't so much a degradation of central control with everyone free to make up his own rules. It's more a situation of consolidation of central control as dissidents are suppressed by being marginalized. Take away the ability to express certain thoughts by implementing Newspeak, and those thoughts don't get expressed. Or, decree that certain ideas are rude, and that it's impolite to express them, and those thoughts don't get expressed.

A friend of mine many years ago observed the difference in how a totalitarian society suppresses dissent, and how an allegedly "free" society does the same thing. In a totalitarian state, if the government hears you say something it doesn't like, you are beaten. That teaches you to keep your mouth shut, but it doesn't change your mind. In an allegedly "free" society, say something that the powers that be don't like and you're dismissed as "rude", or you are laughed at, or you're treated like you're a simpleton (sorry, "intellectually challenged"). Those reactions tend to make one reconsider those views.


GoCubsGo

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Re: ELCA PB Mark Hanson's Town Hall 11/21/2010
« Reply #83 on: December 14, 2010, 09:01:41 AM »
If you want to see just how far PC stuff has gone... I was watching an episode of Sesame Street with my 3 year old son.  They were talking about clothes and getting dressed when the looked back to history.  What made me laugh was when they said, "This is what a caveperson wore."  What is this world coming to when you can't even say, "Caveman" anymore.   ;D ::) :'(

Charles_Austin

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Re: ELCA PB Mark Hanson's Town Hall 11/21/2010
« Reply #84 on: December 14, 2010, 09:13:32 AM »
You can say, Pastor Copeck, that the beloved "Sesame Street" needs writers who are more adept.
Then the character could have said: "This is what people wore when our ancestors lived in caves."

George Erdner

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Re: ELCA PB Mark Hanson's Town Hall 11/21/2010
« Reply #85 on: December 14, 2010, 05:51:16 PM »
If you want to see just how far PC stuff has gone... I was watching an episode of Sesame Street with my 3 year old son.  They were talking about clothes and getting dressed when the looked back to history.  What made me laugh was when they said, "This is what a caveperson wore."  What is this world coming to when you can't even say, "Caveman" anymore.   ;D ::) :'(

At least the stupidity of the political correctness is apparent in that situation. It's even worse when they go through awkward turns of phrase to avoid using clear, simple, plain language. There is something very clear and direct about using only 5 words to say, "This is what cavemen wore", instead of 18 words to say, "This is what our ancestors wore at the time when they sometimes lived in caves or other natural shelters". When the stupidity isn't concealed, there's more chance that people will start to reject the stupidity. When it is disguised, it has a better chance of proliferating.

G.Edward

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Re: ELCA PB Mark Hanson's Town Hall 11/21/2010
« Reply #86 on: December 14, 2010, 11:33:42 PM »
If you want to see just how far PC stuff has gone... I was watching an episode of Sesame Street with my 3 year old son.  They were talking about clothes and getting dressed when the looked back to history.  What made me laugh was when they said, "This is what a caveperson wore."  What is this world coming to when you can't even say, "Caveman" anymore.   ;D ::) :'(

At least the stupidity of the political correctness is apparent in that situation. It's even worse when they go through awkward turns of phrase to avoid using clear, simple, plain language. There is something very clear and direct about using only 5 words to say, "This is what cavemen wore", instead of 18 words to say, "This is what our ancestors wore at the time when they sometimes lived in caves or other natural shelters". When the stupidity isn't concealed, there's more chance that people will start to reject the stupidity. When it is disguised, it has a better chance of proliferating.


It gives those of us with more common sense more to laugh at!

Charles_Austin

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Re: ELCA PB Mark Hanson's Town Hall 11/21/2010
« Reply #87 on: December 15, 2010, 04:49:53 AM »
Gregory Davidson writes:
It gives those of us with more common sense more to laugh at!

I comment:
"God, I thank you that I am not like other people with no common sense, so that I get to laugh twice a week at those senseless, politically correct revisionists."

Ah, the ironies abound!!
"Traditionalists" get all heart-pounding, fluttery and weepy-eyed when they think the rest of us consider them ignorant, homophobic yahoos, which, of course we do not , and we say that frequently.
But when someone actually calls those of us with certain opinions senseless idiots, it is an occasion for laughter? Yeah, that works.  >:( >:(
« Last Edit: December 15, 2010, 05:24:31 AM by Charles_Austin »

jramnes

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Re: ELCA PB Mark Hanson's Town Hall 11/21/2010
« Reply #88 on: December 15, 2010, 07:35:15 AM »
Ah, the ironies abound!!
"Traditionalists" get all heart-pounding, fluttery and weepy-eyed when they think the rest of us consider them ignorant, homophobic yahoos, which, of course we do not , and we say that frequently.
But when someone actually calls those of us with certain opinions senseless idiots, it is an occasion for laughter? Yeah, that works.  >:( >:(
Pastor Austin, you yourself posted the following accusation of those who choose to post without revealing their full name on Monday:

"Otherwise, I am inclined to think (knowing full well that no one cares what I think) that they are either cowards, liars, afraid to stand up publicly for their convictions or fools."

It's unbecoming to you when you actually label people with certain opinions "cowards, liars, or fools." Name calling does not become acceptable simply because you are the one doing it.

Charles_Austin

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Re: ELCA PB Mark Hanson's Town Hall 11/21/2010
« Reply #89 on: December 15, 2010, 09:00:24 AM »
Notice, jramnes, that I said what I am "inclined" to think, what I "might" think and what it is possible to think. I did not say, as I explained upstream, that revcoach was those things or that those of certain views were senseless idiots. Nor do I laugh at their views, even as I lament some of them.