Author Topic: ELCA PB Mark Hanson's Town Hall 11/21/2010  (Read 6283 times)

Pilgrim

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Re: ELCA PB Mark Hanson's Town Hall 11/21/2010
« Reply #60 on: November 23, 2010, 10:07:41 AM »
We disagree on the starting point, deaconess. I tend to begin with the grace that is available; you seem to start with defining (in some precise detail and with relish) the sin.

Tim simply suggests: Charles, perhaps re-reading the Augsburg Confession would be helpful here. The sequence is not accidental. And that may help explain some of the roots of the theological turmoil or confusion that exists in the ELCA. Article IV (granted, which is central) is a gift precisely as a result of Articles 1-III (including Original Sin). Where you begin theologically often determines where you come out.
Pr. Tim Christ, STS

Richard Johnson

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Re: ELCA PB Mark Hanson's Town Hall 11/21/2010
« Reply #61 on: November 23, 2010, 10:10:52 AM »

We are making God into our image when we embrace and use such language, particularly when it is used to intentionally avoid referring to God as He has revealed Himself. Note: He has revealed Himself, not "God" has revealed "Godself."

Oh yeah, I almost missed that.  ;D
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

totaliter vivens

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Re: ELCA PB Mark Hanson's Town Hall 11/21/2010
« Reply #62 on: November 23, 2010, 01:18:47 PM »
God is undoubtedly Father, such as no earthly father.
Jesus Christ is undoubtedly Lord and King, such as no earthly lord, king, or any authority.

IMHO, it is not sufficient to affirm this identity; a Christian must also affirm the directionality of the titles. God is not Father nor is Christ King because they remind us of earthly authority figures; rather humans rightly bear these titles insofar as they reflect the Divine Reality.

Thus while abhorring any attempt to withhold or subvert any of these names and titles from the Living God, it seems necessary to inquire as to what might cause this dangerous linguistic quest. One the one hand, some may seek to make God over in their own image or withhold from the Holy Trinity the dignity of personality in favor of the insult of conceptuality. On the other hand, some may flee from the words Father or Lord because the have been victims of sinful humans who have sought to attribute to God their own abusive and oppressive evil. All options point to grave error, but the locus of the error differs.

SPS

DCharlton

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Re: ELCA PB Mark Hanson's Town Hall 11/21/2010
« Reply #63 on: November 23, 2010, 03:27:14 PM »
God is undoubtedly Father, such as no earthly father.
Jesus Christ is undoubtedly Lord and King, such as no earthly lord, king, or any authority.

IMHO, it is not sufficient to affirm this identity; a Christian must also affirm the directionality of the titles. God is not Father nor is Christ King because they remind us of earthly authority figures; rather humans rightly bear these titles insofar as they reflect the Divine Reality.

Thus while abhorring any attempt to withhold or subvert any of these names and titles from the Living God, it seems necessary to inquire as to what might cause this dangerous linguistic quest. One the one hand, some may seek to make God over in their own image or withhold from the Holy Trinity the dignity of personality in favor of the insult of conceptuality. On the other hand, some may flee from the words Father or Lord because the have been victims of sinful humans who have sought to attribute to God their own abusive and oppressive evil. All options point to grave error, but the locus of the error differs.

SPS


Steven,

Thank you.  You make the kind of distinctions that any Lutheran theologian (meaning all pastors and bishops, as well as professors) should be able to make.  What is most alarming is that some are not able to do that very thing.

David
David Charlton  

Was Algul Siento a divinity school?

amos

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Re: ELCA PB Mark Hanson's Town Hall 11/21/2010
« Reply #64 on: November 23, 2010, 05:06:40 PM »
Charles wrote "And I must "focus" on those "unhappy with (I think you mean "with" not "within") the ELCA because it is some of those people who are most active on this forum."

I did meant exactly what I wrote. Yes, there are some who have left and others not of the ELCA who criticize current trends and actions of the ELCA.  But it is a delusion to assume everyone still left in the ELCA are happy or respect the conditions, leadership, trends and double speak so common today.  There are many who are still here due to circumstances, pension, lack of an opportunity or ability to leave, mobility papers being blocked, (filed and forgotten, or deliberately ignored), splintered congregations, close to retirement, and a whole bunch of other reasons.  I was making a simple statement --- There are many still in the ELCA who have no trust in or respect for the ELCA anymore. --- They love the church universal, and care for their congregations Just not what the ELCA has and is becoming. The sad part is that many bishops, (perhaps not all) and other leaders could care less.  It has been made very clear that the quicker the traditional, orthodox pastors retire or die the better.

I have served the church for 30 years, and in that time I have never seen pastors and congregations treated like they have been in the last 5 years.  Many who stayed to work within the ELCA are facing a brick wall.  Bound conscience is a joke, the traditional message of the gospel is a joke, all that counts is the appearance of inclusiveness, politically correctness and save the environment.

What ever happened to caring about the salvation of souls?  What every happened to trusting God's word and respect for our risen Lord, Jesus, the Christ.  At out last assembly during the hour long report of the bishop on the ELCA, Jesus Christ was not once mentioned.  According to our leadership, the virgin birth, the resurrection, things like justification by grace are no longer relevant.

Contrary to those who focus on and complain about the orthodox pastors, the homosexual issue is just one minor symptom of a much --- much bigger problem we are facing today.  Political cultural philosophy will not and can not take the place of biblical based theology.    When it does you are no longer part of the church universal.     


Charles_Austin

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Re: ELCA PB Mark Hanson's Town Hall 11/21/2010
« Reply #65 on: November 23, 2010, 07:25:15 PM »
So I ask, "Amos," what are you going to do? Stick with us and offer your views as balance or in an attempt to save us from ourselves? Leave? Or hide out in your current call disengaged from the church at large?

You write:
What ever happened to caring about the salvation of souls?  What every happened to trusting God's word and respect for our risen Lord, Jesus, the Christ.
I respond:
It is there. In all its fullness and mystery

You write:
 At out last assembly during the hour long report of the bishop on the ELCA, Jesus Christ was not once mentioned.  According to our leadership, the virgin birth, the resurrection, things like justification by grace are no longer relevant.
I comment:
Can't speak to what your bishop said, but your remarks about the relevance of those doctrines are just not correct. I'm sorry you feel hurt and the need to overstate things so strongly.

amos

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Re: ELCA PB Mark Hanson's Town Hall 11/21/2010
« Reply #66 on: November 23, 2010, 08:06:58 PM »
Charles,

We do see thing differently, According to the faith I was taught as a child, and have believed for almost 70 years, as well as the vows I took seriously at my ordination "the relevance of those doctrines" are the key, core, and center of my faith. If Jesus is not who He said He is than we have nothing.   Paul said the same thing.

G.Edward

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Re: ELCA PB Mark Hanson's Town Hall 11/21/2010
« Reply #67 on: November 23, 2010, 08:21:33 PM »
Not jerking any more knees. Just damn tired of post after post from certain people using every incident every day to bash us again. One might predict that when the next crisis hits the LCMS, and it will, a key reason will be people responding to the kind of attitude and arrogant pontificating displayed here by ptmccain. Or I might suggest that he turn his attention to the apparently serious battles within his own church and ease off on his obsession with ours.
The ELCA will survive the current controversy and even as the disputes continue, is preaching the Gospel and doing what a church should do. We will work with people - even those who disagree with us - but why should we give a churchmouse whisker what a ptmccain thinks?


He's just doing some of us a big favor.  Our heads are getting kind of sore from all the bashing we get from our "colleagues" in ministry.

Rev. Kevin Scheuller

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Re: ELCA PB Mark Hanson's Town Hall 11/21/2010
« Reply #68 on: November 23, 2010, 08:55:56 PM »
...On the other hand, some may flee from the words Father or Lord because the have been victims of sinful humans who have sought to attribute to God their own abusive and oppressive evil. All options point to grave error, but the locus of the error differs.

SPS

Thanks, Steve.  Your remarks remind me of a female classmate back in seminary who said, "I did not have a great earthly father, don't you dare take away my Heavenly Father!" as a refreshing answer to those who would argue that "since many fathers are abusive, isn't it unseemly to refer to God as 'Father.'"

Pilgrim

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Re: ELCA PB Mark Hanson's Town Hall 11/21/2010
« Reply #69 on: November 23, 2010, 09:35:49 PM »
It is there. In all its fullness and mystery

Can't speak to what your bishop said, but your remarks about the relevance of those doctrines are just not correct. I'm sorry you feel hurt and the need to overstate things so strongly.

Tim suggests: Charles, have you seen the proposed constitutional changes which the ELCA church council is proposing? If visions of creeping Fahrenheit 451 do not cross your mind it may be time to revisit the book. Your defense of the flailing and failing institution is becoming almost comical.
Pr. Tim Christ, STS

Charles_Austin

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Re: ELCA PB Mark Hanson's Town Hall 11/21/2010
« Reply #70 on: November 23, 2010, 09:56:22 PM »
While you are laughing, Pastor Christ, do you want to show us where the ELCA Church Council is proposing book burning? I just didn't see that in the constitution changes which are now up for discussion.

Pilgrim

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Re: ELCA PB Mark Hanson's Town Hall 11/21/2010
« Reply #71 on: November 23, 2010, 10:22:08 PM »
While you are laughing, Pastor Christ, do you want to show us where the ELCA Church Council is proposing book burning?

Tim wonders: ????? Huh????? Dare I ask, is english your first language? But for your apparent confusion, think big brother.  ???
Pr. Tim Christ, STS

Richard Johnson

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Re: ELCA PB Mark Hanson's Town Hall 11/21/2010
« Reply #72 on: November 23, 2010, 10:42:54 PM »
I think that was 1984.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

amos

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Re: ELCA PB Mark Hanson's Town Hall 11/21/2010
« Reply #73 on: November 23, 2010, 11:45:02 PM »
I just read something that some of you might find interesting.  Perhaps we should change the name of the ELCA to the NELCA?


(5)  Emphasis upon the implications of the social gospel; neo-evangelicals view the gospel as being two-pronged in nature -- individual and social, thereby neglecting New Testament priorities. As a result, rather than making the gospel applicable to the world, the gospel tends to get watered down to make it acceptable to the world. "The societal impact which [the neo-evangelical] proposes to make fosters the connotation of a 'Christianization' of society ..." which frequently speaks of a "'Christian culture,' a 'new society,' and a 'new social order,' ... [the neo-evangelical aligns] himself and his church with existing social reform movements." (Pickering, p. 134; Whitcomb, p. 1; Lightner, pp. 67-68, 91-92) ---- www.rapidnet.com

Does this description sound just a little like the last ten years?

Matt

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Re: ELCA PB Mark Hanson's Town Hall 11/21/2010
« Reply #74 on: November 23, 2010, 11:55:26 PM »
Or everyone could shift over to Kiswahili (lugha ya Mungu) which doesn't have gender -- e.g., both "he" and "she" are "yeye."

I think Kiswahili would make more sense to me than whatever language Bishop Hanson is speaking.