Author Topic: Koinonia Project: The Chosen 12  (Read 2902 times)

Matt

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Re: Koinonia Project: The Chosen 12
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2010, 04:28:10 PM »
C'mon, TV, post your names!

Scott6

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Re: Koinonia Project: The Chosen 12
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2010, 04:30:39 PM »
Everybody on the list who doesn't participate here is of suspect relevance. We could easily pick twelve LCMS regulars from this forum and just git 'er done right here online (with perhaps a Lilly grant to get them all together a few times in suitable environs). It'll be just like Hollywood, with a bunch of hotshot, loose canon, go-it-alone theologians who play by their own rules getting results, while the policy hacks dilly-dally about protocol. Except for instead of going it alone, they'd use Lilly's money. 

I think it should be run like "The Apprentice" or "Survivor" where contestants have to demonstrate great skill and tenacity under challenging situations put to them.

I like it.  Maybe theologizing while smoking a cigar and enjoying a beer, all before going out to do some target practice later.  Oh wait.  That's not "challenging" but merely business as usual...  X that...  :-\

ptmccain

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Re: Koinonia Project: The Chosen 12
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2010, 04:30:47 PM »
Or, they each are suited in armor and sent out to do battle royale!

Hey, I'm just trying to make it more interesting, since the notion that only 12 people should be in a "Koinonia" is silly, why not make silly fun?

Jim Pierce

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Re: Koinonia Project: The Chosen 12
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2010, 04:30:51 PM »
The following is a thought experiment, and is intended to be fun.

Hmmm... I don't have a list of names, but I think it would be fun to have the congregations in each district nominate three people of their choice, then select the top twelve names from each list and send those people to the IC for a series of martial arts sparring matches. The twelve who emerge victorious could then begin talking about peace and unity around doctrine.  In the meantime, while they sort out the issues of the Synod, we could sell videos of the sparring matches and pull the synod out of her financial woes.  :D

ptmccain

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Re: Koinonia Project: The Chosen 12
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2010, 04:31:57 PM »
I like it.  Maybe theologizing while smoking a cigar and enjoying a beer, all before going out to do some target practice later.  Oh wait.  That's not "challenging" but merely business as usual...  X that...  :-\

Now that's what I'm talking about, nix the drinking before shooting though. Alcohol and .223 or .40 ammo is a bad combination.

kls

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Re: Koinonia Project: The Chosen 12
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2010, 04:32:20 PM »
Hmmm... I don't have a list of names, but I think it would be fun to have the congregations in each district nominate three people of their choice, then select the top twelve names from each list and send those people to the IC for a series of martial arts sparring matches. The twelve who emerge victorious could then begin talking about peace and unity around doctrine.  In the meantime, while they sort out the issues of the Synod, we could sell videos of the sparring matches and pull the synod out of her financial woes.  :D

Very clever!  I'd pay a steep price to watch that video!

Scott6

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Re: Koinonia Project: The Chosen 12
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2010, 04:32:50 PM »
I like it.  Maybe theologizing while smoking a cigar and enjoying a beer, all before going out to do some target practice later.  Oh wait.  That's not "challenging" but merely business as usual...  X that...  :-\

Now that's what I'm talking about, nix the drinking before shooting though. Alcohol and .223 or .40 ammo is a bad combination.

Now that I'm living in the South, it seems par for the course.  But maybe you're right...  ;D

Scott6

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Re: Koinonia Project: The Chosen 12
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2010, 04:34:21 PM »
...then select the top twelve names from each list and send those people to the IC for a series of martial arts sparring matches.

Sweet!  As I spar on a more than a weekly basis (hits to the face are both expected and painful), this sounds like a great idea!

kls

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Re: Koinonia Project: The Chosen 12
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2010, 04:40:00 PM »
They could each give sermons and have to demonstrate how to swing a thurible correctly and how to get a homeless person to come to church.

So you're removing Marie and Pam from your list, Michael?  Hmmmmm???   ;)  Tsk, tsk, tsk . . .

Timotheus Verinus

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Re: Koinonia Project: The Chosen 12
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2010, 05:24:33 PM »
...

OK, I dare you to send that list to President Harrison. In fact, I double dog dare you.  ;)

....

It's too good of an idea to just leave theoretical.

Mike

 ;D Not my problem any more ! Just encouraging you guys to think about it.

Example unnamed liberal - Doctorate, pastor of a small congregation. Graduated from Ft. Wayne Senior College for his bachelor degree in pre-ministry. Has numerous calls on cue all the time. He has at least 4,000 people around the synod who consider him to be "my pastor" even as he objects forcefully to turn to "their" pastor always. Now divide a couple thousand of those by about 20, and you have the congregations and congregational leadership groups that directly pretty much take his sneezes as Gospel. He likely would decline from battle fatigue.

Example two: -conservative - more obscure, but a pastor of a small congregation with Doctorate that I believe Pr. Bolland would yield the floor to, if others would respect him. Was a professor at a Concordia school. Not a heavy board poster but others follow his blogs and comments. Conservatives being a bit more Berean, I will only say they usually give him the benefit of presumption that his sneezes are probably Gospel. He too probably would decline from battlefield wounds.

These are two, that many who we see active in leadership and on boards, find understanding and teachings, or at least follow their blogs religiously. The influence mushrooms when you consider their disciples actively pass on their doctrines, sometimes as leaders in the Synod. You can engage the disciples, but you might want to find a way to pry out the thoughts of those who put forward others to be leaders. Seminaries form young pastors and instruct the masses of clergy. There are others who carry influence of groups from quiet places.

Pr Harrison is more than capable of sorting that out on his own. We just need to grant him the grace to do so.

I provide this as a simple reality to ponder as you seek to engage the issues. It will not be easy, and some of these folks even if not participants, need to be consulted into the discussion, with respect and charity. This is true in local discussions as well.

TV

PS. Since I guess the question looms, I am missionary taught and disciple of a simple retired missionary who does not put himself up, but points to being a disciple of Christ, which he is. He was out of the country during all the controversies, so not many positions there. I have had many other teachers from LCMS, but I still pretty much pay attention to his sneezes.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2010, 06:12:44 PM by TVerinus »
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pr dtp

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Re: Koinonia Project: The Chosen 12
« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2010, 08:25:22 PM »
I do not believe this can be done at a district or synodical level.

It must be done at the circuit level - every circuit-  and further it must be 12 people willing to work it through.  And they must start with what we have in common - the doctrine of justification - and the means by which we are justified - word and sacrament.

Dave Benke

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Re: Koinonia Project: The Chosen 12
« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2010, 10:54:51 PM »
As much as a representational Koinonia back/n/forth would be, and as much as I'm game for any talkathon on matters of importance, the key to the Koinonia Project is and will remain that it remain unpolluted by the overture bug.  The proposal that the dialog be accomplished without changes in policy/handbook/church-political procedure is the whole enchilada, and that's the way it's going to be done.  Open the room to actual dialog with no handbook/bhlaw change options, and actual dialog will take place at any and all levels.

Dave Benke

kls

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Re: Koinonia Project: The Chosen 12
« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2010, 06:49:04 AM »
They could each give theological presentations.  ;)

Better?

Indeed.  Just having a little fun.  ;)

SKPeterson

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Re: Koinonia Project: The Chosen 12
« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2010, 07:37:49 AM »
I'd have to put Gene Veith in the list for a layman's perspective and Larry Peters wouldn't be a bad choice either on the pastoral front.

Matt

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Re: Koinonia Project: The Chosen 12
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2010, 10:26:39 AM »
the key to the Koinonia Project is and will remain that it remain unpolluted by the overture bug. 

I think I agree with this. As I read Pr. Harrison, the Koinonia Project should not be a legislative body, neither should it be an attempt to produce documents with confessional authority. Neither should it be a mere "talk shop," if it doesn't produce change in how congregations worship and operate at the grass-roots level then it probably isn't worth much.

I think there should be three levels of deliberation: at circuit, district and synod levels. Perhaps the circuit groups meet for a week in the summer and post the results of their deliberations in a public internet forum. Then a week after they conclude, the district groups convene for a week, using the circuit documents as inputs. Then a week after that is over, the Synod group convenes for two or three weeks. So the ideas flow upward from the grass roots. At each stage, the groups pray together, perhaps doing matins and vespers each day, led by different pastors taking turns. Significant time for Bible study should take place before deliberation, and arguments should be framed in terms of Scripture and Confession.

Stage 1 would be to define the areas of controversy; Stage 2 would be an attempt to reach unity in each area of controversy. I envision this functioning a little like the U.S. Supreme Court. After deliberating on a topic, each member of the group would have the right to draft a statement of position about the topic, to be posted in the public forum. Those members in complete agreement could add their signatures to someone else's statement. Thus, you would typically have a majority opinion and minority opinion coming out of a group on a contentious topic and the signatures would indicate who takes the given position. Then, the Synod level group would have an array of opinions from the lower groups to inform their deliberations. And no one will be silenced or forced into endorsing ideas they cannot accept, it will be okay to post a minority opinion of one.

My prayer is that these discussions will be about theological ideas expressed in the terms of scripture and confessions and church history. The end documents will more clearly illuminate where we agree and where we differ. The end result may be a more unified church body and it may be a split, but it will allow us to be more clear about what we believe, teach and confess.