Author Topic: Steadfast Lutherans Reflection On Lutheran Forum Article  (Read 8539 times)

pr dtp

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Re: Steadfast Lutherans Reflection On Lutheran Forum Article
« Reply #75 on: November 13, 2010, 11:39:16 AM »
I suppose we could counter with a generalization that  "Mid-westerners do not read the Confessions or Walther without blinders on, are anit-missional, still desire the liturgy in German, and conveniently ignore that the organ was hated by clergymen for centuries far more than they hate guitars, and think Brett Farve is really Michael the Arch-angel.  But not all fit that stereotype?"    ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

I suggest you look at the examples of churches bashed on LQ for not being Lutheran - they are rarely East Coast - but often Missouri, Michigan, Wisonsin, Texas, etc.




ptmccain

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Re: Steadfast Lutherans Reflection On Lutheran Forum Article
« Reply #76 on: November 13, 2010, 12:05:04 PM »
YAWN.

 ::)

pr dtp

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Re: Steadfast Lutherans Reflection On Lutheran Forum Article
« Reply #77 on: November 13, 2010, 12:27:07 PM »
YAWN.

 ::)

Exactly - the generalizations or typing based on one bad apple adds nothing to the conversation.  That is the exact point.





Erma S. Wolf

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Re: Steadfast Lutherans Reflection On Lutheran Forum Article
« Reply #78 on: November 13, 2010, 12:45:11 PM »
I have to admit that I do not get the "East Coast", "West Coast", "Midwest" thing (even though I do live in the Midwest).

What few people understand is that the cultural, theological and intellectual heart of world Lutheranism is Mississippi. We are the few, the proud, the Mississippi Lutherans. We are in full fellowship with our brothers and sisters from other deep south states so we are not exclusivistic. As to the rest of you.....

Thank you, Pastor Gard!  I was about to mention the existence of the true gift to Lutheranism, Southern Lutherans.  Memphis, TN (as Faulkner notes, where the Mississippi Delta begins in the lobby of the Peabody Hotel) had Lutherans (Mo. Synod types) long before much of the upper Midwest and Great Plains states saw a single Swede or Norsk or Dane, and I am proud to have been fed Lutheran teaching along with my grits 'n gravy.  Having to defend infant baptism and sacramental practices and liturgy amongst my Southern Baptist friends meant I had to know why my church did the things it did.  Excellent training in confessions and apologetics!

Getting to the upper Midwest, Minnesota particularly, and dealing with the too-oft expressed "we invented Lutheranism" mind-set still occasionally drives me nuts.  Why I still call this area "Lutherland" and recommend taking trips to other areas of the country as a needed corrective in perspective. 

Weedon

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Re: Steadfast Lutherans Reflection On Lutheran Forum Article
« Reply #79 on: November 13, 2010, 01:34:17 PM »
One bad apple, eh?  My home parish was no bad apple.  It was a parish held in quite high regard by the entire district.  It supplied two District Presidents.  It was in so very many ways a wonderful place.  Yet in its approach to the issues I outlined, it was not remarkable.  It was simply the way things tended to go throughout the Southeastern District.  I know that District.  I grew up there and served my first six years as a pastor in it.  My brother-in-law is still a member of an LCMS parish there.  If you choose to disregard those who have had actual experience and their generalizations, so be it.  But the generalizations still stand, for all that.  Often, but not invariably true; they characterize the region's approach to Lutheranism.  

Daniel L. Gard

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Re: Steadfast Lutherans Reflection On Lutheran Forum Article
« Reply #80 on: November 13, 2010, 01:41:28 PM »
I have to admit that I do not get the "East Coast", "West Coast", "Midwest" thing (even though I do live in the Midwest).

What few people understand is that the cultural, theological and intellectual heart of world Lutheranism is Mississippi. We are the few, the proud, the Mississippi Lutherans. We are in full fellowship with our brothers and sisters from other deep south states so we are not exclusivistic. As to the rest of you.....

Thank you, Pastor Gard!  I was about to mention the existence of the true gift to Lutheranism, Southern Lutherans.  Memphis, TN (as Faulkner notes, where the Mississippi Delta begins in the lobby of the Peabody Hotel) had Lutherans (Mo. Synod types) long before much of the upper Midwest and Great Plains states saw a single Swede or Norsk or Dane, and I am proud to have been fed Lutheran teaching along with my grits 'n gravy.  Having to defend infant baptism and sacramental practices and liturgy amongst my Southern Baptist friends meant I had to know why my church did the things it did.  Excellent training in confessions and apologetics!

Getting to the upper Midwest, Minnesota particularly, and dealing with the too-oft expressed "we invented Lutheranism" mind-set still occasionally drives me nuts.  Why I still call this area "Lutherland" and recommend taking trips to other areas of the country as a needed corrective in perspective. 

Pastor Wolf,

It is hard to explain how being a Lutheran in the South shapes a child. My sister and I were just about the only Lutheran students at Biloxi High School. Defending my faith to my Baptist and RC friends (large Portugese and Cajun RC communities on the Gulf Coast) was great training for a future pastor.

My brother went to Good Shepherd Lutheran Pre-School where the pastor was none other than a young man named......Rev. Gerald Kieschnick.

Weedon

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Re: Steadfast Lutherans Reflection On Lutheran Forum Article
« Reply #81 on: November 13, 2010, 01:47:12 PM »
On the liturgical front I'd add another distinctive: the East Coast Lutherans (especially around NY) tend to be more open and engaged in and influenced by the current state of the liturgical movement, whereas many in the midwest (certainly not all!) have had a greater engagement and tend to give greater weight to the Lutheran liturgical heritage as it was shaped historically.  I think this tends to show in distinct ways:  you're more likely to see the elements processed forward with the offerings (indeed, as part of the offerings) on the East Coast; but I suspect you'd more likely hear the Verba without Eucharistic prayer chanted aloud in the midwest.  Obviously, you'll find exceptions in either case.  But in general the weight of current ecumenical liturgical consensus is given greater weight on the one hand; the weight of Lutheran liturgical tradition is given greater weight on the other.

pr dtp

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Re: Steadfast Lutherans Reflection On Lutheran Forum Article
« Reply #82 on: November 13, 2010, 05:58:46 PM »
One bad apple, eh?  My home parish was no bad apple.  It was a parish held in quite high regard by the entire district.  It supplied two District Presidents.  It was in so very many ways a wonderful place.  Yet in its approach to the issues I outlined, it was not remarkable.  It was simply the way things tended to go throughout the Southeastern District.  I know that District.  I grew up there and served my first six years as a pastor in it.  My brother-in-law is still a member of an LCMS parish there.  If you choose to disregard those who have had actual experience and their generalizations, so be it.  But the generalizations still stand, for all that.  Often, but not invariably true; they characterize the region's approach to Lutheranism.  

My point wasn't about you being the bad apple - but the continued insistence that the behaviors of one church, or one circuit is representative of the whole (which is what a generalization is). What percentage makes a generalization?  50 percent?  75? 99?

You don't like generlizations when they are applied to you - why do you think others might not mind you doing it to them?

Weedon

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Re: Steadfast Lutherans Reflection On Lutheran Forum Article
« Reply #83 on: November 13, 2010, 06:30:22 PM »
I don't mind generalizations applied to me when they are indeed fair generalizations.  If I'm an exception to a certain generalization, I'll say so.  Generalizations are helpful.  They are the first step to learning; the second step is to learn the exceptions.  Just like in languages.  First learn the rules, then learn the exceptions.  In English, i comes before e except after c (except for the word society) or when sounded as a in neighbor or weigh.  The exceptions are exceptions because they are not typical.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2010, 06:32:41 PM by Weedon »

ddrebes

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Re: Steadfast Lutherans Reflection On Lutheran Forum Article
« Reply #84 on: November 13, 2010, 07:24:06 PM »
One bad apple, eh?  My home parish was no bad apple.  It was a parish held in quite high regard by the entire district.  It supplied two District Presidents.  It was in so very many ways a wonderful place.  Yet in its approach to the issues I outlined, it was not remarkable.  It was simply the way things tended to go throughout the Southeastern District.  I know that District.  I grew up there and served my first six years as a pastor in it.  My brother-in-law is still a member of an LCMS parish there.  If you choose to disregard those who have had actual experience and their generalizations, so be it.  But the generalizations still stand, for all that.  Often, but not invariably true; they characterize the region's approach to Lutheranism.  
Was your home church Redeemer, Hyattsville, by any chance?

Jeremy Loesch

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Re: Steadfast Lutherans Reflection On Lutheran Forum Article
« Reply #85 on: November 13, 2010, 07:27:47 PM »
J&S, Matt U. and Will are right in their generalizations on 'East Coast Lutheranism'.  You ask a fair question about how far can we go with a generalization, but Matt U. and Will are still right when it comes to the administration of the Lord's Supper and their openness about the service of women.  I'm an SED guy and more congregations than not practice some version of open communion.  Women elders?  That's been going on since I was in high school (1991-95).  

There is a willingness to dialog with all comers in matters of faith and religious service and practice.  There is a willingness to spend of ourselves for the sake of others.

Will's home church in Silver Spring is exactly as he says it is.  Excellent facility.  

Jeremy  
A Lutheran pastor growing into all sorts of things.

grabau14

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Re: Steadfast Lutherans Reflection On Lutheran Forum Article
« Reply #86 on: November 13, 2010, 07:45:05 PM »
One bad apple, eh?  My home parish was no bad apple.  It was a parish held in quite high regard by the entire district.  It supplied two District Presidents.  It was in so very many ways a wonderful place.  Yet in its approach to the issues I outlined, it was not remarkable.  It was simply the way things tended to go throughout the Southeastern District.  I know that District.  I grew up there and served my first six years as a pastor in it.  My brother-in-law is still a member of an LCMS parish there.  If you choose to disregard those who have had actual experience and their generalizations, so be it.  But the generalizations still stand, for all that.  Often, but not invariably true; they characterize the region's approach to Lutheranism.  

When I was a confused Methodist boy going to Baltimore Lutheran, I went to the sacrament at several LCMS parishes when the concert band played at one of the churches.  I told all of the LCMS pastors that I was a Methodist and they all invited me up to the altar.  It wasn't until I met Dr. Hein at CURF that I was told (and rightly so) that those LCMS pastors were in error. 

J&S can speak of these generalizations all he wants, but I have seen it and heard it with my own eyes and ears.  In fact, when my family is on vacation, we drive into Highlandtown for the mass because we know the sermon will be solid, the sacrament will be given, the liturgy will be done well, and I get to see an old friend. 

 

pr dtp

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Re: Steadfast Lutherans Reflection On Lutheran Forum Article
« Reply #87 on: November 13, 2010, 11:12:28 PM »
So if these generalizations are the rule - and 90+ percent - and you consider them such an issue - why are you still in altar fellowship with these horrid sinners? 

Or why haven't you spent the last 20 years working hand in hand with these individual pastors, circuit counselors and district presidents you know break these rules?  Instead - you tolerate them and complain about them on the internet - as long as they stay in the salt water districts.  Writing admonitions to 6000 is easy.  (Or saying the tactic is wrong but the issues are correct and someone should do something is even easier) Working with the brother in the nearby church, or  the pastor of the church you grew up in directly is easy.

I am curious - which of you confronted LQ's owner about his encouragement of people he is not in fellowship with to openly commune with him?  Or what about those who openly commune with ELS and WELS?

Generalizations are not handy in communities - even as they might be in languages or in marketing.  Generalizations keep the distance safe - and work against fellowship.  Communities require names and faces and discussions and working through the issues to reconcile their relationship.

If its time to talk - talk to one of those people - say the pastor from the church you were baptized in- -personally.







Weedon

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Re: Steadfast Lutherans Reflection On Lutheran Forum Article
« Reply #88 on: November 13, 2010, 11:21:43 PM »
I tolerate them and complain about them?  I'm not sure what you mean.  I've mentioned that such was the practice; I've not necessarily complained about it, per se. I've said the area needs to be addressed.  It does.  It's an area where we have large divergence across the Synod and I look at it from both sides because I've lived from both sides.  I'm not sure I have the wisdom of the best answers, but I know that continuing to pretend that we are united on the answer is folly.  The rubber band can stretch a bit, but if it pulls too far it finally breaks.  So let's talk about the areas where the rubber band is showing great strain.  Certainly communion practice and the role of women are two of those areas.  I say that not in judgment on either side, but in observation that the tension in Synod is palpable on these areas.  So let's sort things out and come to unity about what is the Lord's will here.

I completely disagree that generalizations are not helpful in communities.  I think they are.  They are the very foundation of humor, for instance, but let's talk by all means across the Synod about the tension points. 

The pastor who served the Church I was baptized in is now retired; and I hold him in great, great esteem.  He was a fabulous preacher of the Gospel.  The conversation, while listening to the retired pastors, needs to be focused upon the current pastors in the Synod, no?

Charles_Austin

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Re: Steadfast Lutherans Reflection On Lutheran Forum Article
« Reply #89 on: November 14, 2010, 05:34:05 AM »
Pastor Weedon writes:
The conversation, while listening to the retired pastors, needs to be focused upon the current pastors in the Synod, no?

I (though I do not have a bird in this cage) comment:
A bit condescending, no? "Well, let's listen to the old guys, but they really don't matter much." They never attend church anyway, never preach or preside, are never consulted by younger pastors, never attend districts/synod/conference/winkel meetings.
Focus on getting the young whippersnappers into line, the geezers will soon fade away.
The ministry is the ministry, Pastor Weedon, and everyone in it counts equally.
 ;D ;D