Steadfast Lutherans Reflection On Lutheran Forum Article

[James_Gale]

Maybe Mike means "unionism," which is an important technical term in the LCMS.

Peace,
Michael

Perhaps so.  From an LCMS perspective, unionism most assuredly would be an improper form of ecumenism.

[mariemeyer]

But I also think that it is fair to point out that the ALPB definitely seems to have pushed an agenda of ecumenism at least in its early years.  Father Slusser seems to pick up on that, and I don't think he really has a dog in this LCMS internecine fight.

If by ecumenism you mean matters such as Lutheran/Roman Catolic diologue.  Yes, then members of the ALPB spoke up for and participated in such conversations before the synod did.

Yes, the issue that led to the "44" was fellowship.   The story has been told here more than once.  When LCMS missionary Brux arrived in India after a long and arduous journey, he was befriended by Presbyterians who provided hospice for arriving missionaries before they moved on to their designated location.  Brux prayed with the Presbyterians  during the time they gave him respite. Word os this reached the Mission Board in St. Louis.  Brux was called back and never permitted to return, even though he was one of the most skilled linguists ever to come out of the LCMS.. It's a long sad complicated story, but it led the "44" to produce A Statement thereby questioning how the LCMS understood fellowship.  When it seened as if the they would be tossed out of synod, 300 other pastors signed on.  

There are other stories such as Dr. John Nau speaking at the funeral of a black student from the LCMS Greensboro NC  high school. for blacks. The student had drowned.  Nau, principal of the school,  attended the funeral.  He sat in back of the church so as not to be conspicuous, hardly possible as an extremely tall white man in a small black Baptist church.  The pastor invited Nau up to say a few words which he did.  Again, he was called back to St. Louis to explain his "fellowship" with Baptists.

Stories such as this prompted the 44 to question how the LCMS defined fellowship.

Marie Meyer

[Michael Slusser]

Maybe Mike means "unionism," which is an important technical term in the LCMS.

Peace,
Michael

No, I don't mean that.

I mean ecumenism which as you point out can be done properly or improperly.

But Pr. Benke and Fr. Slusser ever so lightly rapped my knuckles for stating that the ALPB pursued an agenda of ecumenism even though that seems to me exactly what the mission statement Pr. Jagow pointed out promotes.

Sorry, Mike. But when you said "accused of ecumenism," I had the same reaction as James Gale.

As for the ALPB, I see their effort to make a common Lutheran voice possible as quite different from ecumenism. Maybe a lame parallel, but the association of pharmaceutical manufacturers seeks to be a voice for the industry, not to foster mergers. One big difference: ALPB is independent of all the Lutheran churches, PhARMA is owned and controlled by the corporations.

Peace,
Michael

[FrPeters]

I am not sure that folks always understand the nature of such a forum as this -- people all over the field speaking on subjects near and dear as well as topics surprising and shocking.  Sometimes the folks here vent, sometimes they rant, sometimes things profound are posted and sometimes things petty.  I personally appreciate a forum in which there is such diversity.  It is by nature ecumencial in that the conversation is not among like minded people but truly brings different points of view to the table.  This is not unionism since there is no joint worship but I have to admit that sometimes I wish I was close enough to drop in on some of the folks on this forum.  The BSJ forum is decidedly different -- more folks see eye to eye on that forum and the discussion is often aimed at events and people outside the group that is speaking.  Not bad but very different... maybe that is why it is difficult to categorize this forum... Sometimes I love it and sometimes I hate it but I never go too long without poking in to see what is fomenting at the moment... Thanks to those who make it so interesting, even though at times it is, well, ah, frustrating... but then again my favorite people are the ones who force me to think outside the box and that certainly happens here.  In addition, it is a place where you find out news from throughout the Lutheran family and spectrum.

[Matt]

I think it is easy to pigeonhole the ALPB as a bunch of liberals and BJS as a bunch of conservatives. The reality is, of course, more complex on both sides. And we have to remember that most of the posters on the ALPB Forum have no membership in or connection to the ALPB organization. I believe the same is true of the BJS posters.

I particularly appreciate the perspective of Pr. Noland at BJS. It seems to me that he is charitable toward the other side by using the word "moderate" to describe them and he is respectful toward Pr. Hannah even while criticizing Hannah's position. Unfortunately, many of the posters at BJS do not follow the example of the main contributors.

Also, I think it is fair to characterize the editorial position of the ALPB as "East Coast Lutheran." Certainly, this is true historically and several of the regular Forum contributors represent the "saltwater" perspective and live in and around New York. One of the reasons I hang out here is to better understand this perspective, as well as the range of opinion in the ELCA. 

[Charles_Austin]

Matthew Jamison writes:
Also, I think it is fair to characterize the editorial position of the ALPB as "East Coast Lutheran."

I muse:
One editor is California. A former editor is now in Kansas. One moderator here is in California, another in some place in the midwest. An associate editor of Lutheran Forum is in New York.
What do the real editors of ALPB think of this characterization of their "editorial position"?

[Dave Benke]

The East Coast has been and remains the straw that stirs the drink in the Missouri Synod, witness:

John Hannah, Paul Sauer, Dien Taylor, Ozzie Hoffmann, Ted Wittrock, Rudy Ressmeyer, Herman Otten, John Tietjen, Bob Smith, Andy Weyermann, Bob Werberig, Ralph Klein (5 Seminex leaders in a row there), David Scaer, Ralph Schultz, Jim Brauer, Marie Meyer, yours truly, oh, and didn't Martin Noland get his degree from Union Seminary here?  Did I miss that?  Did he miss that?  Who missed that? And of course the next generation - Scott Geminn and Matt Staneck, and luminaries to be named later.  Also Mr. Met.

I eliminated Walter Otten because he kept bothering me at Pres. Harrison's installation, following me around and interrupting everyone I met, four or five times,  with "Why are you talking to HIM?  Don't talk to him!"  So finally I broke back on him with "Hey, you're from New York yourself - cut me a break here!" To which he replied, "I was born and raised in the Bronx, but I thank God I was delivered from New York and translated to the Midwest!"  My response, suitable for framing, was "Wow!  That's amazing - that's exactly the same prayer WE have been praying about you all these years!"  

Check please, I think we're done here.  No NYC street cred for you, Walter.  Just another thick-cruster from the aptly named "Second" City.  As we say, "You Can Take the A Train - but dude, it doesn't really go to Chicago.  It ends in Far Rockaway, on the beach."

Dave Benke

[pr dtp]

Matthew Jamison writes:
Also, I think it is fair to characterize the editorial position of the ALPB as "East Coast Lutheran."

I muse:
One editor is California. A former editor is now in Kansas. One moderator here is in California, another in some place in the midwest. An associate editor of Lutheran Forum is in New York.
What do the real editors of ALPB think of this characterization of their "editorial position"?

But it's northern california - our version of Pine Barrens...

[George Erdner]

Also, I think it is fair to characterize the editorial position of the ALPB as "East Coast Lutheran." Certainly, this is true historically and several of the regular Forum contributors represent the "saltwater" perspective and live in and around New York. One of the reasons I hang out here is to better understand this perspective, as well as the range of opinion in the ELCA. 

That seems a resonable assumption. An editorial position can be described as consistent with the thinking of East Coast Lutherans even if the individuals determining editorial positions are geographically located elsewhere.

[MaddogLutheran]

Matthew Jamison writes:
Also, I think it is fair to characterize the editorial position of the ALPB as "East Coast Lutheran."

I muse:
One editor is California. A former editor is now in Kansas. One moderator here is in California, another in some place in the midwest. An associate editor of Lutheran Forum is in New York.
What do the real editors of ALPB think of this characterization of their "editorial position"?

But it's northern california - our version of Pine Barrens...

So is there an indigenous Jersey California devil, too?  Well, other than Nancy Pelosi, of course... 

If you don't understand the reference, please check google.  It's an East Coast thing.

[Matt]

Exactly my point, George. And I certainly didn't miss Pr. Noland's East Coast connection; he knows what he is talking about in this regard.

I think East Coast Lutheranism is characterized by a certain social and theological liberalism and a strong interest in ecumenism along with a "high" evangelical catholic liturgical practice. Exceptions abound, and I'm sure several of you will take strong exception to my characterization.

I will say this: since living in New York and New Jersey I have been richly blessed by the liturgical practice of the LCMS churches that I have attended. My opinion of East Coast Lutheranism is certainly not all negative.

[Matt]

Also, Lutheran friends and family from the Midwest and South that have come to worship with us have found church here to be shockingly katholisch. On such occasions, I cross myself even more than usual just to add to their discomfort. 

[Weedon]

I have not found a single region where one could describe the state of Lutherans as all positive or all negative; but east coasters in general (hey, I are one) have a silly and inflated sense of their own importance.  The cool thing about midwesterners is that they (generally) don't.  It's one of the things I have come to love about them.

[Matt Staneck]

Matthew,

With you up until theologically liberal.  I don't think that characterizes East Coast LCMSers.  Most I run into are theologically conservative.  Are there political liberals?  Oh sure.  But I don't think we can make a clean cut connection between the political liberals and theological liberals.  Certainly many theological liberals are also political liberals. But alas, I don't find these terms and categories all too helpful.

I am a confessional Lutheran, yet all over the place politically.  Perhaps you weren't looking to go that far with what you said, if not then I apologize and please carry on.

Not sure what the mis/dis placed East Coaster from Maryland is talking about.  We are not silly, and we most certainly are not inflating our importance.  Our importance is just that great.  I'm actually heading to the airport in a couple minutes here, on this the final day of the quarter, to flex my East Coast importance by heading home via Pr. W's rejected home state, before finally being brought to the most important, no inflation necessary, place on earth: Long Island, NEW YORK.

Prayers for this egotistical traveler are extremely appreciated!

M. Staneck

[SKPeterson]

Well, I count ALPB (avert your eyes Charles!) as being extremely important to my own journey out of the ELCA and in to the LCMS.  And it's all the fault of guys like Peters and Benke and Weedon and even, God bless them and keep them, Tibbetts and Swensen.