Author Topic: Digging Deeper  (Read 13796 times)

Coach-Rev

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Re: Digging Deeper
« Reply #195 on: November 15, 2010, 03:42:27 PM »
It has always been fascinating to me that when the men working on the Greek translation of the Old Testament, well before Christ came on the scene, came to Is. 7:14, they chose to use the Greek word that means "virgin," "parthenos," rather than another word for the Hebrew word "Almah."



do you mean they perhaps knew something we don't??!  :o

RevDavid

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Re: Digging Deeper
« Reply #196 on: November 15, 2010, 04:39:52 PM »
You have only been on this forum for less than three weeks, so you can be excused for not knowing that this is a discussion going back many years and that I consistently and frequently argue that people taking part in this forum, involving brother and sister Lutherans, pastors and lay people concerned for their church, should be open and honest about who they are.
I know of no reason why ninety-nine percent of the people posting here should not be open about who they are in this discussion.

This seems an odd position for the same person who said:
Actually, I would strongly advise limiting one's participation in Facebook because of the potential security issues and misuse of whatever is posted there.

There are those of us who, while enjoying the discussion, see no reason why you would need to know who we are.  What we have to say stands, regardless of what our username is on this site..

~David

Charles_Austin

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Re: Digging Deeper
« Reply #197 on: November 15, 2010, 05:13:16 PM »
Someone notes that I have reservations about Facebook and then says:
There are those of us who, while enjoying the discussion, see no reason why you would need to know who we are.  What we have to say stands, regardless of what our username is on this site..

I comment:
No, it does not "stand," no matter what your username is. You could be an Opus Dei Roman Catholic, a Utah survivalist, a 13-year old geek, a nerdy troublemaker, a woman in her 90s still nursing a grudge because her Lutheran pastor husband had a fling with the church secretary back in 1952, an atheist, a universalist, or a Russian spy.
I ask again: someone give me a good reason for not participating here under their own name. (I was given a good reason by one participant and I respect that, but it is a highly-unusual situation.)

ptmccain

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Re: Digging Deeper
« Reply #198 on: November 15, 2010, 05:20:28 PM »
do you mean they perhaps knew something we don't??!  :o

Perhaps, and perhaps they actually believed something "we" don't.

 :D

peter_speckhard

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Re: Digging Deeper
« Reply #199 on: November 15, 2010, 05:22:49 PM »
Someone notes that I have reservations about Facebook and then says:
There are those of us who, while enjoying the discussion, see no reason why you would need to know who we are.  What we have to say stands, regardless of what our username is on this site..

I comment:
No, it does not "stand," no matter what your username is. You could be an Opus Dei Roman Catholic, a Utah survivalist, a 13-year old geek, a nerdy troublemaker, a woman in her 90s still nursing a grudge because her Lutheran pastor husband had a fling with the church secretary back in 1952, an atheist, a universalist, or a Russian spy.
I ask again: someone give me a good reason for not participating here under their own name. (I was given a good reason by one participant and I respect that, but it is a highly-unusual situation.)
There are many potential good reasons, and it is incumbent upon you to assume that every anonymous poster has one of them, or at least thinks he does and isn't asking your opinion about it. For one thing, it prevents ad hominem argumentation. Every Utah survivalist and 13 year old geek with a genuine question or insight knows that once you know who he is, that will be the end of it. Just the ravings of a Utah survivalist or 13 year old geek unworthy of further consideration.

Coach-Rev

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Re: Digging Deeper
« Reply #200 on: November 15, 2010, 05:24:56 PM »
Quote from: someone=topic=3442.msg188818#msg188818 date=1289859196

(I was given a good reason by one participant and I respect that, but it is a highly-unusual situation.)

and who is that person and what was the reason? 

Mike Bennett

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Re: Digging Deeper
« Reply #201 on: November 15, 2010, 05:26:02 PM »
Someone notes that I have reservations about Facebook and then says:
There are those of us who, while enjoying the discussion, see no reason why you would need to know who we are.  What we have to say stands, regardless of what our username is on this site..

I comment:
No, it does not "stand," no matter what your username is. You could be an Opus Dei Roman Catholic, a Utah survivalist, a 13-year old geek, a nerdy troublemaker, a woman in her 90s still nursing a grudge because her Lutheran pastor husband had a fling with the church secretary back in 1952, an atheist, a universalist, or a Russian spy.
I ask again: someone give me a good reason for not participating here under their own name. (I was given a good reason by one participant and I respect that, but it is a highly-unusual situation.)

As I read RevDavid's note, I see that his point is that the quality of what's written is more important than the identity of who wrote it.  I have trouble understanding what's wrong with that.  A Greek restaurant I used to frequent before it closed for the second time had a supposed quote from Socrates near the front door:  "Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss other people."  Too often this forum is a place where anything posted by Contributor A is attacked in knee-jerk fashion by Contributor Z, because it has Contributor A's name on it.  Likewise with Contributor B, C or D, by knee-jerk adversaries Y, X, or W.  It's sometimes amusing to see the long hesitations when a new person writes something, and high volume posters don't reply for awhile because they don't know whether he's friend or foe, to be automatically savaged or automatically affirmed.  This forum isn't the only place that happens, but it is surely one of them.

And so what if RevDavid is a 90 year old woman whose husband fooled with the organist 58 years ago?  

Mike Bennett
« Last Edit: November 15, 2010, 05:28:18 PM by Mike Bennett »
“What peace can there be, so long as the many whoredoms and sorceries of your mother Jezebel continue?”  2 Kings 9:22

ptmccain

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Re: Digging Deeper
« Reply #202 on: November 15, 2010, 05:28:06 PM »
Can we all please simply ignore Austin as he continues to, as Richard put it, comment "tiresomely and obsessively" about anonymous contributors?

Don't facilitate his behavior by acknowledging it or responding to it. Ignore it.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2010, 05:31:53 PM by ptmccain »

Mike Bennett

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Re: Digging Deeper
« Reply #203 on: November 15, 2010, 05:29:08 PM »
Can we all please simply ignore Austin as he continues his, as Richard put it, obsessive behaviors about anonymous comments? Don't facilitate his behavior by acknowledging or responding to it.

Contributor X responding to Contributor C.   8)
“What peace can there be, so long as the many whoredoms and sorceries of your mother Jezebel continue?”  2 Kings 9:22

Charles_Austin

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Re: Digging Deeper
« Reply #204 on: November 15, 2010, 05:32:22 PM »
Peter writes:
There are many potential good reasons, and it is incumbent upon you to assume that every anonymous poster has one of them, or at least thinks he does and isn't asking your opinion about it. For one thing, it prevents ad hominem argumentation. Every Utah survivalist and 13 year old geek with a genuine question or insight knows that once you know who he is, that will be the end of it. Just the ravings of a Utah survivalist or 13 year old geek unworthy of further consideration.
I respond:
For heaven's sake! Are you really such a literalist?!!
I've been around online communications for a long long time, long enough to know what mischief can be worked.
Again: This is a discussion among Lutherans about serious matters concerning the life of our church. You give me one good reason why we should not know who is taking part in the discussion. Give me one good reasons why anonymity should be necessary here. One.

An it is again necessary to notice another attempt by ptmccain to end a discussion. "Just ignore Austin," he says again. Does that not teeter towards the dread ad hominem?

MaddogLutheran

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Re: Digging Deeper
« Reply #205 on: November 15, 2010, 05:33:25 PM »
Someone notes that I have reservations about Facebook and then says:
There are those of us who, while enjoying the discussion, see no reason why you would need to know who we are.  What we have to say stands, regardless of what our username is on this site..

I comment:
No, it does not "stand," no matter what your username is. You could be an Opus Dei Roman Catholic, a Utah survivalist, a 13-year old geek, a nerdy troublemaker, a woman in her 90s still nursing a grudge because her Lutheran pastor husband had a fling with the church secretary back in 1952, an atheist, a universalist, or a Russian spy.
I ask again: someone give me a good reason for not participating here under their own name. (I was given a good reason by one participant and I respect that, but it is a highly-unusual situation.)
I was all set to ignore this, because Esteemed Moderator Johnson previously dealt with this issue (again), but I cannot let your above pass, as it's just plain obnoxious.  Let me ask you a question:  why do YOU need to know the real name of all participants in this forum?  Why don't you justify your need to know first?  The most recent "Someone" you are challenging could indeed be any of those people you catalog in your reply, to which I would ask:  so what?  Unless they are testifying to particular facts which who they really are would allow others to judge the veracity of their claims, a person's exact identity has no bearing on the ideas they express.  Of course, since it has been your M.O. to immediately look up a named participant on various church bodies rosters, you seem keen on knowing such things.  I'd suggest it's none of your business to inquire into a person's background, beyond what they offer publicly--perhaps that's why some people don't use real names.  Until you are appointed a forum moderator by ALPB, it's none of your concern.  You've previously expressed to me your low opinion of the dialog in this forum, so I don't understand why this is such an issue for you.  Some of the LCMS discussion today has been very interesting indeed, with national implications, which demonstrates forum's value.  I take at face value that the First VP has indeed posted a comment here, but considering the nature of the internet, it could just as easily been a Russian spy, as the forum has no method of identity certification.

Sterling Spatz
(I see the other Esteemed Moderator has also chimed in while I wrote, and I thank him as well.)
Sterling Spatz
ELCA pew-sitter

Scott6

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Re: Digging Deeper
« Reply #206 on: November 15, 2010, 05:35:01 PM »
Peter writes:
There are many potential good reasons, and it is incumbent upon you to assume that every anonymous poster has one of them, or at least thinks he does and isn't asking your opinion about it. For one thing, it prevents ad hominem argumentation. Every Utah survivalist and 13 year old geek with a genuine question or insight knows that once you know who he is, that will be the end of it. Just the ravings of a Utah survivalist or 13 year old geek unworthy of further consideration.
I respond:
For heaven's sake! Are you really such a literalist?!!
I've been around online communications for a long long time, long enough to know what mischief can be worked.
Again: This is a discussion among Lutherans about serious matters concerning the life of our church. You give me one good reason why we should not know who is taking part in the discussion. Give me one good reasons why anonymity should be necessary here. One.

An it is again necessary to notice another attempt by ptmccain to end a discussion. "Just ignore Austin," he says again. Does that not teeter towards the dread ad hominem?

The discussion has nothing to do with this thread and has littered literally dozens of threads for years.  Start a new thread if you want to revisit anonymity, a practice allowed on this site -- this pet peeve has distracted and derailed this thread enough.

Mike Bennett

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Re: Digging Deeper
« Reply #207 on: November 15, 2010, 05:36:00 PM »
Peter writes:
There are many potential good reasons, and it is incumbent upon you to assume that every anonymous poster has one of them, or at least thinks he does and isn't asking your opinion about it. For one thing, it prevents ad hominem argumentation. Every Utah survivalist and 13 year old geek with a genuine question or insight knows that once you know who he is, that will be the end of it. Just the ravings of a Utah survivalist or 13 year old geek unworthy of further consideration.
I respond:
For heaven's sake! Are you really such a literalist?!!
I've been around online communications for a long long time, long enough to know what mischief can be worked.
Again: This is a discussion among Lutherans about serious matters concerning the life of our church. You give me one good reason why we should not know who is taking part in the discussion. Give me one good reasons why anonymity should be necessary here. One.

An it is again necessary to notice another attempt by ptmccain to end a discussion. "Just ignore Austin," he says again. Does that not teeter towards the dread ad hominem?

And Contributor C busts Contributor X in the mouth!

Are we such literalists that' we're to fear that Contributor C will be able to end discussion?

I have a suggestion for ending ad hominems - for one week FORBID any posting to be signed.   ::)

MIke Bennett
“What peace can there be, so long as the many whoredoms and sorceries of your mother Jezebel continue?”  2 Kings 9:22

RevDavid

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Re: Digging Deeper
« Reply #208 on: November 15, 2010, 05:40:30 PM »
And so what if RevDavid is a 90 year old woman whose husband fooled with the organist 58 years ago?  

Thanks a lot!  Now that you've outed me, I have to get a new username.
 :)

~David

Charles_Austin

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Re: Digging Deeper
« Reply #209 on: November 15, 2010, 05:43:37 PM »
Sterling Spatz writes:
Unless they are testifying to particular facts which who they really are would allow others to judge the veracity of their claims, a person's exact identity has no bearing on the ideas they express.
I comment:
No. Of course not. A member of the LCMS sees things exactly as a member of the ELCA or the WELS sees them. Someone who has left the ELCA or the LCMS has a real stake in what happens internally in those church bodies. A pastor of a church pressuring him to take it out of the ELCA or the LCMS doesn't have a certain shading to his comments. An isolated lay person, unaccustomed to certain types of dialogue, might have another coloring to his or her comments.
I have interviewed thousands of people on hundreds of issues and in every single case, if those comments are to be for public consumption (with very rare exceptions) I and my readers need to know who they are.

Mr. Spatz writes:
Of course, since it has been your M.O. to immediately look up a named participant on various church bodies rosters, you seem keen on knowing such things. 
I comment:
Not immediately, but at times....

Mr. Spatz writes:
I'd suggest it's none of your business to inquire into a person's background, beyond what they offer publicly--perhaps that's why some people don't use real names.
I comment:
For fear of me? Then we really are in trouble here.