Author Topic: Digging Deeper  (Read 13799 times)

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Digging Deeper
« Reply #165 on: November 14, 2010, 11:50:24 PM »
All Greek pronouns referring to the Holy Spirit are neuter???  Look again at John 15:26!  The Spirit of truth whom I will send from the Father, THAT ONE [masculine!] will bear witness of me.  Look at John 16:13 and you'll see it again - the reflexive (about himself) is masculine though the referent is the Spirit (neuter).

In John 15:26, ἐκεῖνος like ὅ and ὅν in the verse, refer back to ὁ παράκλητος, which is masculine. ἐκεῖνος in 16:13, like ἐκεῖνος in v. 8, refer back to ὁ παράκλητος in v. 7.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Digging Deeper
« Reply #166 on: November 14, 2010, 11:52:44 PM »
In Hebrew, the word for S/spirit is feminine and all Hebrew pronouns related to Spirit are feminine, but English translations do not translate them as "she".

No. Ruach is both feminine (usually) and masculine (uncommonly).

We also have an instance where θεὀς, which is usually masculine, is used to refer to a female God by using the female definite article (Acts 19:37).
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Digging Deeper
« Reply #167 on: November 14, 2010, 11:53:06 PM »
Now Will, don't confuse him with the facts . . .

If only he were accurately reporting the facts.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Scott6

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Re: Digging Deeper
« Reply #168 on: November 15, 2010, 07:40:07 AM »
All Greek pronouns referring to the Holy Spirit are neuter???  Look again at John 15:26!  The Spirit of truth whom I will send from the Father, THAT ONE [masculine!] will bear witness of me.  Look at John 16:13 and you'll see it again - the reflexive (about himself) is masculine though the referent is the Spirit (neuter).

In John 15:26, ἐκεῖνος like ὅ and ὅν in the verse, refer back to ὁ παράκλητος, which is masculine. ἐκεῖνος in 16:13, like ἐκεῖνος in v. 8, refer back to ὁ παράκλητος in v. 7.

Re: John 15.26, not quite.  The ὅ refers to τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας (the Spirit of Truth) and is neuter.  ἐκεῖνος, on the other hand, does refer to the παράκλητος, though the πνεῦμα is in apposition and could be considered a compound subject.

Re: John 16:13, the πνεῦμα is nearest at hand and could be considered the grammatical subject except for the fact that the masc pronoun doesn't agree with the neut subject.  Which is what would cause you to search around for something masc, such as ὁ παράκλητος.  Which leaves you begging the question, of course.

But in both cases, John identified that to which he was referring both with masculine (the Advocate) and neuter (the Spirit) nouns.  Both refer to the Holy Spirit.

Re: your citation of Acts 19:37, I wasn't aware that θεὀς was Hebrew and related to ruach.

Coach-Rev

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Re: Digging Deeper
« Reply #169 on: November 15, 2010, 08:38:39 AM »
Ponder.
Those of us who support the ELCA are supposed to be "sympathetic," "caring," "pastoral" and other warm and fuzzy words towards the traditionalists, respecting their views and their conscience. Should we speak sharp words to people we believe are unnecessarily paranoid or who claim that "their" church or "their" ministry is being taken from them, we are quickly chastised as brutes who don't understand the tears shed on that "other side".

Ponder.
But now it is said, regarding what I am posting: "Ignore him. Don't listen to him. And maybe he will go away." Or, "Let's have some fun by 'pushing his buttons.'"
You guys are really something.

Charles, I for one no longer ask you or anyone "on the other side" to be sympathetic and caring.  The time for that is long past.  I'm tired of being beaten up at synodical gatherings and having my viewpoints dismissed at conference meetings.

As to pushing your buttons, it was a moment of levity.  And are you honestly going to tell me that this is not what happens whenever someone posts something here that YOU disagree with?  I mean, lets be serious here:  You can't even reply to anything I write by using my forum name...  And for the record, I am a Coach AND have the title of Reverend, so the name is accurate.

Coach-Rev

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Re: Digging Deeper
« Reply #170 on: November 15, 2010, 08:46:53 AM »
It also seems the discussion on masculine pronouns here shows, yet again, the rift between those who wish to accommodate to an ever changing world view versus those who believe the church and the Gospel stand apart and opposed to a secularized world view.  Just because newer dictionaries and english primers say that it is no longer appropriate does not make it so.   I would defer to Jim Nestingen, who in class one day (no need to discuss how long ago that was  :D ) said that "victims of incest take great delight in referring to God as their father, since their own abusive father was such a b#st@rd!"

Charles_Austin

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Re: Digging Deeper
« Reply #171 on: November 15, 2010, 08:56:08 AM »
Someone writes:
You can't even reply to anything I write by using my forum name...  And for the record, I am a Coach AND have the title of Reverend, so the name is accurate.

I comment:
The description may be accurate, but the name is still missing. You have only been on this forum for less than three weeks, so you can be excused for not knowing that this is a discussion going back many years and that I consistently and frequently argue that people taking part in this forum, involving brother and sister Lutherans, pastors and lay people concerned for their church, should be open and honest about who they are.
I know of no reason why ninety-nine percent of the people posting here should not be open about who they are in this discussion.
I'm sorry if you feel "beaten up" at synodical gatherings. If people are whopping away on you, that is wrong. On the other hand, sometimes we must  take a little heat for our convictions. Pastor Stoffregen and I (two certain "types" in this discussion) have certainly done so for a number of years.

A Catholic Lutheran

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Re: Digging Deeper
« Reply #172 on: November 15, 2010, 09:11:45 AM »
Someone writes:
You can't even reply to anything I write by using my forum name...  And for the record, I am a Coach AND have the title of Reverend, so the name is accurate.

I comment:
The description may be accurate, but the name is still missing. You have only been on this forum for less than three weeks, so you can be excused for not knowing that this is a discussion going back many years and that I consistently and frequently argue that people taking part in this forum, involving brother and sister Lutherans, pastors and lay people concerned for their church, should be open and honest about who they are.
I know of no reason why ninety-nine percent of the people posting here should not be open about who they are in this discussion.
I'm sorry if you feel "beaten up" at synodical gatherings. If people are whopping away on you, that is wrong. On the other hand, sometimes we must  take a little heat for our convictions. Pastor Stoffregen and I (two certain "types" in this discussion) have certainly done so for a number of years.


There is a distinction to be made, however, between a compulsory function like a Synod Assembly, an event that is "highly recomended" like a Synodical continuing education event or Bishop's convocation, and something that is completely voluntary and in which nobody would really count it against you if you (a) didn't show up or (b) kept quiet...

Like this forum, for example.

Pax Christi;
Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS

Charles_Austin

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Re: Digging Deeper
« Reply #173 on: November 15, 2010, 09:17:47 AM »
Pastor Kliner writes (re my protest against anonymity, I think):
There is a distinction to be made, however, between a compulsory function like a Synod Assembly, an event that is "highly recomended" like a Synodical continuing education event or Bishop's convocation, and something that is completely voluntary and in which nobody would really count it against you if you (a) didn't show up or (b) kept quiet...
Like this forum, for example.

I comment:
I don't get this. No one should get "beat up" in any forum of fellow Lutherans. But sometimes one takes the "blows" for the sake of expressing one's conviction and bearing the consequences. My main complaint over many years has been that the only reason people ever give for hiding behind a screen name is that they are afraid of what might happen if their views are known. I find that unacceptable.

Maryland Brian

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Re: Digging Deeper
« Reply #174 on: November 15, 2010, 10:14:42 AM »

As to pushing your buttons, it was a moment of levity.  And are you honestly going to tell me that this is not what happens whenever someone posts something here that YOU disagree with?  I mean, lets be serious here:  You can't even reply to anything I write by using my forum name...  And for the record, I am a Coach AND have the title of Reverend, so the name is accurate.

 He'll quote church law at you and fume about your name, but never actually say anything theologically grounded - well, at least of any depth.  Like I suggested to Amos, ignore him. 

 As per blacklisted, well of course that is the reality of anyone who has made the mistake of publicly seeking to hold back the weirdness inside the ELCA.  It will only get worse.  So if you are seeking a call right now, I wouldn't let Charles bait me into doing something as foolish as using my real name either.

FatherWilliam57

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Re: Digging Deeper
« Reply #175 on: November 15, 2010, 10:21:19 AM »
My main complaint over many years has been that the only reason people ever give for hiding behind a screen name is that they are afraid of what might happen if their views are known. I find that unacceptable.

Of course, when journalists make regular use of "unnamed sources," that would be a totally different kettle of (red herring) fish.
The Rev. William B. Henry, Jr.
Interim Pastor, St. Peter's Lutheran Church, Evans City, PA
"Put on the whole armor of God."

Team Hesse

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Re: Digging Deeper
« Reply #176 on: November 15, 2010, 10:27:21 AM »
Pastor Kliner writes (re my protest against anonymity, I think):
There is a distinction to be made, however, between a compulsory function like a Synod Assembly, an event that is "highly recomended" like a Synodical continuing education event or Bishop's convocation, and something that is completely voluntary and in which nobody would really count it against you if you (a) didn't show up or (b) kept quiet...
Like this forum, for example.

I comment:
I don't get this. No one should get "beat up" in any forum of fellow Lutherans. But sometimes one takes the "blows" for the sake of expressing one's conviction and bearing the consequences. My main complaint over many years has been that the only reason people ever give for hiding behind a screen name is that they are afraid of what might happen if their views are known. I find that unacceptable.

So go do something about it --you know, advocate with your colleagues, offer synod resolutions, stand in solidarity with the victims, advocate for justice until this wrong is righted--stop blaming the victims and help move your communion to greater heights of full inclusion. Actually try to be an example of a suffering servant for the sake of your neighbor. Give it a try and maybe you will come to understand why some are the way they are. Quit posing.

Lou

Charles_Austin

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Re: Digging Deeper
« Reply #177 on: November 15, 2010, 10:36:07 AM »
Pastor Henry writes:
Of course, when journalists make regular use of "unnamed sources," that would be a totally different kettle of (red herring) fish.

I comment:
First, we do not make "regular" use of unnamed sources. Second, when we do, our editors know who the source is. Third, the reason is never just to "protect" the source, but to obtain information that might not otherwise be available.
What reason do you see here for someone not posting under their own name?

Charles_Austin

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Re: Digging Deeper
« Reply #178 on: November 15, 2010, 10:36:22 AM »
Or, if anyone wants a perspective on the nature of Pastor Hughes postings here (in his current incarnation, he has been in and out in other personas), you would find, if you looked at his last 100 postings:
*Mostly 1-line or 2-line comments;
*at least (by my rough count) 21 postings (21!) telling all present that I am no theologian;
*gossip about a rumor; and
*a batch of quick jabs at the church body to which he belongs.
And if anyone can find among these jabberings, something "theologically grounded" in anything but Pastor Hughes' personal musings, please let me know.
Good grief.
 

Charles_Austin

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Re: Digging Deeper
« Reply #179 on: November 15, 2010, 10:42:18 AM »
Lou writes (to me) I think:
So go do something about it --you know, advocate with your colleagues, offer synod resolutions, stand in solidarity with the victims, advocate for justice until this wrong is righted--stop blaming the victims and help move your communion to greater heights of full inclusion. Actually try to be an example of a suffering servant for the sake of your neighbor. Give it a try and maybe you will come to understand why some are the way they are. Quit posing.

I comment:
O.k., gladly. But in my synod, I have not seen anyone beat up at synod assemblies because of their "traditionalist" views; nor have I seen that in my regular pastors' study group, nor have I seen it in our workshops or other synodical events. As noted far upstream, some of us did our "suffering" in the past as we became advocates for racial justice, peace, liturgical renewal, ecumenical progress and women pastors.
Posing? No.