Author Topic: Digging Deeper  (Read 13803 times)

RevSteve

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Re: Digging Deeper
« Reply #180 on: November 15, 2010, 10:43:58 AM »
Pastor Kliner writes (re my protest against anonymity, I think):
There is a distinction to be made, however, between a compulsory function like a Synod Assembly, an event that is "highly recomended" like a Synodical continuing education event or Bishop's convocation, and something that is completely voluntary and in which nobody would really count it against you if you (a) didn't show up or (b) kept quiet...
Like this forum, for example.

I comment:
I don't get this. No one should get "beat up" in any forum of fellow Lutherans. But sometimes one takes the "blows" for the sake of expressing one's conviction and bearing the consequences. My main complaint over many years has been that the only reason people ever give for hiding behind a screen name is that they are afraid of what might happen if their views are known. I find that unacceptable.

So go do something about it --you know, advocate with your colleagues, offer synod resolutions, stand in solidarity with the victims, advocate for justice until this wrong is righted--stop blaming the victims and help move your communion to greater heights of full inclusion. Actually try to be an example of a suffering servant for the sake of your neighbor. Give it a try and maybe you will come to understand why some are the way they are. Quit posing.

Lou


Amen Lou!!!
Pastor Steven M. Bliss LCMC and NALC-  St Olaf Lutheran Church, Bode, Iowa

New quote, got tired of questions about Dante quote...

"Doin stuff is overrated. Like Hitler did a lot of stuff but don't we all wish he would have just sat around all day and got stoned?"-Dex from the Tao of Steve

Richard Johnson

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Re: Digging Deeper
« Reply #181 on: November 15, 2010, 10:47:26 AM »

As to pushing your buttons, it was a moment of levity.  And are you honestly going to tell me that this is not what happens whenever someone posts something here that YOU disagree with?  I mean, lets be serious here:  You can't even reply to anything I write by using my forum name...  And for the record, I am a Coach AND have the title of Reverend, so the name is accurate.

 He'll quote church law at you and fume about your name, but never actually say anything theologically grounded - well, at least of any depth.  Like I suggested to Amos, ignore him. 

 As per blacklisted, well of course that is the reality of anyone who has made the mistake of publicly seeking to hold back the weirdness inside the ELCA.  It will only get worse.  So if you are seeking a call right now, I wouldn't let Charles bait me into doing something as foolish as using my real name either.

Brian, your continued disrespectful comments are skating close to the edge of a time out. We are all aware of your lack of respect for Pr. Austin, and it is unnecessary for you to continue to display it.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Digging Deeper
« Reply #182 on: November 15, 2010, 10:50:45 AM »

I'm sorry if you feel "beaten up" at synodical gatherings. If people are whopping away on you, that is wrong.

Your offering here on ALPB Forum Online might carry a bit more weight if I didn't know several pastors from your own New Jersey Synod who have tired of being "beaten up" at synodical gatherings for expressing their "traditionalist" views.

spt+
Who observes that the using of "handles" on boards such as this has been a normative practice since they were invented, and thus can't understand why the veteran Charles Austin is so huffy about it here.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2010, 10:54:22 AM by The Rev. Steven P. Tibbetts, STS »
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RevSteve

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Re: Digging Deeper
« Reply #183 on: November 15, 2010, 10:53:06 AM »
Lou writes (to me) I think:
So go do something about it --you know, advocate with your colleagues, offer synod resolutions, stand in solidarity with the victims, advocate for justice until this wrong is righted--stop blaming the victims and help move your communion to greater heights of full inclusion. Actually try to be an example of a suffering servant for the sake of your neighbor. Give it a try and maybe you will come to understand why some are the way they are. Quit posing.

I comment:
O.k., gladly. But in my synod, I have not seen anyone beat up at synod assemblies because of their "traditionalist" views; nor have I seen that in my regular pastors' study group, nor have I seen it in our workshops or other synodical events. As noted far upstream, some of us did our "suffering" in the past as we became advocates for racial justice, peace, liturgical renewal, ecumenical progress and women pastors.
Posing? No.

Yeah because the good bishop could always be relied upon to put barriers in front of traditionalist pastors in a way that could be seen by all. Yeah I am sure there is a word for this attitude but the image in the link below just seems to convey it better than any word I could come up with.

http://www.uknowhy.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/035ostrich_468x538.jpg
Pastor Steven M. Bliss LCMC and NALC-  St Olaf Lutheran Church, Bode, Iowa

New quote, got tired of questions about Dante quote...

"Doin stuff is overrated. Like Hitler did a lot of stuff but don't we all wish he would have just sat around all day and got stoned?"-Dex from the Tao of Steve

Charles_Austin

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Re: Digging Deeper
« Reply #184 on: November 15, 2010, 10:53:56 AM »
Steven writes:
Your offering here on ALPB Forum Online might carry a bit more weight if I didn't know several pastors from your own New Jersey Synod who have tired of being "beaten up" at synodical gatherings .

I comment:
If it happened in any public forum, such as the floor of a synod assembly, or a synodical event, I did not see it. And if I did, I would protest it. Furthermore, as we see on this forum, for some being criticized in whatever tone of voice can be perceived as a "beating." I do not believe that a single church in my synod has taken or is considering taking a vote to leave the ELCA.

A Catholic Lutheran

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Re: Digging Deeper
« Reply #185 on: November 15, 2010, 10:55:49 AM »
Pastor Kliner writes (re my protest against anonymity, I think):
There is a distinction to be made, however, between a compulsory function like a Synod Assembly, an event that is "highly recomended" like a Synodical continuing education event or Bishop's convocation, and something that is completely voluntary and in which nobody would really count it against you if you (a) didn't show up or (b) kept quiet...
Like this forum, for example.

I comment:
I don't get this. No one should get "beat up" in any forum of fellow Lutherans. But sometimes one takes the "blows" for the sake of expressing one's conviction and bearing the consequences. My main complaint over many years has been that the only reason people ever give for hiding behind a screen name is that they are afraid of what might happen if their views are known. I find that unacceptable.


Actually, just to be clear, I was protesting your drawing equivalence between what you and Brian choose to do on this forum (which is completely voluntary) versus those of us who have had to endure contempt and ridicule at the hands of colleagues and even Bishops at Synodical functions.

Even when we choose to "keep our heads down and our mouths shut," often times we have to endure snide comments, rudeness, and ridicule from our opponents.  Most times I go to Synod Assemblies seeking only to have friendly conversation with my colleagues (most of whom I only get to see on rare occassions), only to have to endure the (usually mis-informed) comments of those who want to opine about the dreaded "conservatives," the "closed minded leagalists," and those misguided souls who have left the ELCA because they "hate" homosexuals.  But this is old stuff and I digress.

I don't mind taking the heat for my beliefs.  Never have.  That's why sometimes I post here and sometimes I don't.  But that's my choice.  But Synodical functions I have less freedom about... sometimes none.  

That...was...my...point.

Pax Christi;
Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS

Charles_Austin

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Re: Digging Deeper
« Reply #186 on: November 15, 2010, 10:59:27 AM »
And you do not see those occasions as opportunities for you to express your views, correct misconceptions, and prove that there is no need to "dread" conservatives or that you are not a "close-minded legalist"? That's really sad. Sounds like you are missing some good opportunities. Why?

Richard Johnson

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Re: Digging Deeper
« Reply #187 on: November 15, 2010, 11:00:38 AM »

This dictionary includes "s/he" as an entry: "a written representation of "he or she" used as a neutral alternative to indicate someone of either sex."


I still prefer writer (and feminist!) Harlan Ellison's written use of "s/h/it" in such situations.

spt+

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Richard Johnson

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Re: Digging Deeper
« Reply #188 on: November 15, 2010, 11:04:12 AM »

The description may be accurate, but the name is still missing. You have only been on this forum for less than three weeks, so you can be excused for not knowing that this is a discussion going back many years and that I consistently and frequently tiresomely and obsessively argue that people taking part in this forum, involving brother and sister Lutherans, pastors and lay people concerned for their church, should be open and honest about who they are.

The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

A Catholic Lutheran

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Re: Digging Deeper
« Reply #189 on: November 15, 2010, 11:07:03 AM »
And you do not see those occasions as opportunities for you to express your views, correct misconceptions, and prove that there is no need to "dread" conservatives or that you are not a "close-minded legalist"? That's really sad. Sounds like you are missing some good opportunities. Why?

In a word: No.

Pax Christi;
Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS

David M. Frye, OblSB

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Re: Digging Deeper
« Reply #190 on: November 15, 2010, 11:20:48 AM »
Charles helped the discussion by citing the notes below from the ELCA Web site.

The first sentence of the second block of text shows where the ELCA's theology of language used to speak to God goes awry. It begins with "The image of father." When Jesus tells his followers, and all of us who overhear him, how to pray, he gives us the name to use, not an image to use. Thus "Father" is the proper name of the first person of the Trinity, not an image used to suggest qualities of the first person of the Trinity. As Dr. Jenson pointed out in his lecture in Columbus in August, giving us the name "Father" is the one new thing in the prayer. The rest is simply a compilation of what faithful Jews had always prayed.

So, when we understand that the name is Father, certain pronouns follow directly. Those pronouns point to the name. Those pronouns are "He" and "Him."


Here are some paragraphs from various parts of the ELCA website. I do not know what "standing" any of the documents have.

Language Addressing God
In the Lordís Prayer, Jesus addressed God as abba, "father." This address does not ascribe human male sexuality to God but is an intimate address that is suggestive of the loving and trusting relationship between parent and child.


The image of father used by Jesus draws upon the deepest and most human of all relationships ó that of parent to child. God traditionally has been called "father" in worship to convey the intimate relationship between God and the church. The metaphorical use of the term "father" continues to be used in worship, alongside many other biblical metaphors for God. However, because sin can distort even the fundamental relationships of parents to children, the image of a father may be difficult to comprehend for some who have experienced alienation in their relationship to a human father.

Titles that suggest the activity of God may be used to address God. Such titles include Advocate, Healer, Savior, and Refuge. Many biblical titles for God are also available; They include Adonai, Source of Life, Root of Jesse, and Alpha and Omega.

Similes may be used to address God. For example, "God who cares for us as a mother hen cares for her chicks" or "God, who watches over us as a sentinel standing watch by night. . . . "

Second-person pronouns, instead of gender specific and third person pronouns, may be used to address God.
David M. Frye, OblSB

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+ That God may be glorified in all things.

Maryland Brian

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Re: Digging Deeper
« Reply #191 on: November 15, 2010, 12:13:52 PM »

In a word: No.

Pax Christi;
Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS


 In the overall scheme of things, indeed no.  The way forward for the ELCA has been determined.  Latest stat I saw on Breen's site 3DM concludes 4% of Gen Y were likely to have been in a church this past weekend.  Therefore, the most productive use of our time will be expended reaching that generation, not continuing to be involved in unproductive conflicts.  The "winner" of the current conflict will be revealed in another twenty years. Historically thus far it has been the  confessional, faithful disciple producing traditions which have prevailed across the many centuries.  Time to invest elsewhere, yes?

RogerMartim

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Re: Digging Deeper
« Reply #192 on: November 15, 2010, 01:16:05 PM »
Getting back to the original subject of this thread, maybe someone can help me to understand if there is any difference between the Hebrew word for "young woman" and the German Jungfrau which is its word for virgin. I know it is a long stretch from Hebrew to German, but isn't the premise the same?

Coach-Rev

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Re: Digging Deeper
« Reply #193 on: November 15, 2010, 01:52:32 PM »
Getting back to the original subject of this thread, maybe someone can help me to understand if there is any difference between the Hebrew word for "young woman" and the German Jungfrau which is its word for virgin. I know it is a long stretch from Hebrew to German, but isn't the premise the same?

Depending on who you talk to on this thread, there isn't even agreement on what parthenos means.  I submit that translations which translate as "young woman" the Hebrew "almah" are driven by an agenda other than faithful translation.  the authority on Koine Greek has been, at least in my lifetime, Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, and Danker, and parthenos, the word used in the Septuagint in the Isaiah passage in question is "parthenos," meaning virgin.  end of story.

as far as how it translates to German, I suspect based on the overwhelming weight of history, tradition, and the Scriptures themselves.

ptmccain

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Re: Digging Deeper
« Reply #194 on: November 15, 2010, 03:35:09 PM »
It has always been fascinating to me that when the men working on the Greek translation of the Old Testament, well before Christ came on the scene, came to Is. 7:14, they chose to use the Greek word that means "virgin," "parthenos," rather than another word for the Hebrew word "Almah."