Author Topic: "parish arrangement" as future policy of the ELCA?  (Read 9029 times)

George Erdner

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Re: "parish arrangement" as future policy of the ELCA?
« Reply #45 on: November 05, 2010, 05:11:16 PM »
One more time: I am not a cheerleader for the ELCA in every instance.


Picking one or two minor and obscure things to publicly object to just to give the illusion of not being the ELCA's head cheerleader is deceptive and deceitful.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 06:01:15 PM by George Erdner »

Coach-Rev

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Re: "parish arrangement" as future policy of the ELCA?
« Reply #46 on: November 05, 2010, 07:27:57 PM »
The funny thing here is that this whole thread was started to find information, from others since I find it hard to trust the synod office right now, based on things that have been publicly stated of late, not the least of which is the approval of Marty's keynote statements by our synod office, mentioned by Amos.  I'm a bit disappointed that I seem to be getting attacked by one individual for doing what he keeps instructing me to do.

One more thing:  Is "Charles Austin" a pseudonym for Mark Hanson?

George Erdner

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Re: "parish arrangement" as future policy of the ELCA?
« Reply #47 on: November 05, 2010, 07:45:42 PM »
The funny thing here is that this whole thread was started to find information, from others since I find it hard to trust the synod office right now, based on things that have been publicly stated of late, not the least of which is the approval of Marty's keynote statements by our synod office, mentioned by Amos.  I'm a bit disappointed that I seem to be getting attacked by one individual for doing what he keeps instructing me to do.

One more thing:  Is "Charles Austin" a pseudonym for Mark Hanson?

There are some who believe that, and others who believe differently. It all depends on your bound conscience what you choose to believe. Just keep sending your benevolence money to Higgins road to fund Hanson's favorite social agenda projects.

Charles_Austin

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Re: "parish arrangement" as future policy of the ELCA?
« Reply #48 on: November 05, 2010, 08:22:15 PM »
The anonymous person has been here only a few days so I suppose we can excuse him for not knowing the lay of the land or the dramatis personae active in this forum. But he should take the time to learn.

Or I could ask a counter question: Is Coach-Rev a pseudonym for Herman Otten or James Nestigen or any of the others who have declared the ELCA apostate and worse?

He says he finds it hard to trust his synod office, which in essence accuses the office of lying or some kind of deception. So we must ask whether he has sought reconciliation and fraternal counsel according to Matthew 18, or are these just wild, emotional allegations?

George Erdner

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Re: "parish arrangement" as future policy of the ELCA?
« Reply #49 on: November 05, 2010, 08:49:30 PM »
The anonymous person has been here only a few days so I suppose we can excuse him for not knowing the lay of the land or the dramatis personae active in this forum. But he should take the time to learn.

Or I could ask a counter question: Is Coach-Rev a pseudonym for Herman Otten or James Nestigen or any of the others who have declared the ELCA apostate and worse?

He says he finds it hard to trust his synod office, which in essence accuses the office of lying or some kind of deception. So we must ask whether he has sought reconciliation and fraternal counsel according to Matthew 18, or are these just wild, emotional allegations?

What difference does it make? Are you incapable of dealing with an idea without knowing the source? Are you looking for the means to engage in your common ad hominem attacks? The words are there to read. Read them and take them at face value. You don't need to know who posted them.

If anonymity bothers you more than you can bear, ignore it.

Ken Kimball

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Re: "parish arrangement" as future policy of the ELCA?
« Reply #50 on: November 05, 2010, 09:44:32 PM »
The anonymous person has been here only a few days so I suppose we can excuse him for not knowing the lay of the land or the dramatis personae active in this forum. But he should take the time to learn.

Or I could ask a counter question: Is Coach-Rev a pseudonym for Herman Otten or James Nestigen or any of the others who have declared the ELCA apostate and worse?

 

Not Nestingen nor Herman Otten.  Not even Carl Braaten.  But a good faithful pastor. 

Coach-Rev, I received similar treatment back in 2006 after reporting on the April 2006 ELCA Church Council for Forum Letter.  Take Pr. Austin's jabs as a mark that you have arrived!   :)  Not sure where you've arrived at, but you have arrived. 

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: "parish arrangement" as future policy of the ELCA?
« Reply #51 on: November 05, 2010, 09:51:29 PM »
To my pseudonomous synodical colleagues who've entered the fray via this thread, welcome!

Pax, Steven+
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Evangel

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Re: "parish arrangement" as future policy of the ELCA?
« Reply #52 on: November 05, 2010, 10:39:28 PM »
The anonymous person has been here only a few days so I suppose we can excuse him for not knowing the lay of the land or the dramatis personae active in this forum. But he should take the time to learn.

Or I could ask a counter question: Is Coach-Rev a pseudonym for Herman Otten or James Nestigen or any of the others who have declared the ELCA apostate and worse?

 

Not Nestingen nor Herman Otten.  Not even Carl Braaten.  But a good faithful pastor. 

Coach-Rev, I received similar treatment back in 2006 after reporting on the April 2006 ELCA Church Council for Forum Letter.  Take Pr. Austin's jabs as a mark that you have arrived!   :)  Not sure where you've arrived at, but you have arrived. 

Nestingen jokingly (I think) complains that people often cheat him out of an "n" in his name.   :P
Mark Schimmel, Pastor
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Dan_Biles

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Re: "parish arrangement" as future policy of the ELCA?
« Reply #53 on: November 05, 2010, 11:57:28 PM »

I can't believe that information would even be remotely considered accurate. If it is , add another nail to the coffin. That would totally negate the congregation in the call process.

 

Without going into great detail, several former ELCA pastors and synod council members have talked about a proposed restructuring of the call process in the ELCA.  As it is, interims are appointed by the synod office, and I believe (although I could be mistaken on this) that the synod office has authority now to appoint pastors to multi-point parishes, even if they do not always do so.

Word is that having all clergy positions appointed, rather than called, is in the works, through something called "parish arrangement,"  possibly as soon as 3 years and the 2013 CWA.  I would like to know more info on this, if it exists, and where to find it.

Thanks

Which would be, of course, a way for the GLBT agenda people in the ELCA to get around all those promises made at CWA2009 that no congregation will be forced to take an active homosexual pastor, etc....

amos

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Re: "parish arrangement" as future policy of the ELCA?
« Reply #54 on: November 06, 2010, 12:08:51 AM »
Charles --- you are correct with your statement --- He says he finds it hard to trust his synod office, which in essence accuses the office of lying or some kind of deception.

Actually that is the case, let us just say -- less that accurate information given to the synod council, a orthodox pastor put on leave from call while still serving a church without his knowledge.  At this years assembly orthodox pastors received ridicule, snide comments, made fun of and were directly insulted from the floor and nothing was done to stop it but in many ways it was openly sanctioned. This too is not rumor but well known to many different pastors and congregations at the assembly who saw it with their own eyes.  A cheerleader should know the teams playbook and not rely on the propaganda.  

Charles_Austin

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Re: "parish arrangement" as future policy of the ELCA?
« Reply #55 on: November 06, 2010, 03:53:38 AM »
But "amos," we have no first-hand knowledge of that and you have not provided it. We do not know who you are, whether you are a real ELCA pastor or an imposter here. We do not know the synod, the bishop, or the participants in the discussions that offend you. We do not know the context of Dr. Marty's alleged statement. You have not provided that information.
If what you say happened, that is, if certain pastors were "ridiculed" or "insulted," I would oppose that; as I have said many times on this forum over many years.
But I will not reply to unsubstantiated charges from anonymous persons.
(Actually, my usual policy is to ignore persons who post here and do not give their names, but that is sometimes set aside.)

David M. Frye, OblSB

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Re: "parish arrangement" as future policy of the ELCA?
« Reply #56 on: November 06, 2010, 07:00:12 AM »
It was Doctor Otto Octavius, aka Doc Ock, played by Alfred Molina in Spider-Man 2.

Stan Lee created the character for the Spider-man comic books. While Peter Parker (Spider-Man) followed the wisdom of his Uncle Ben, "With great power comes great responsibility," Doc Ock's character offers a commentary on the irresponsible use of power.

Not unrelated to our current predicaments in the Church.

That hardly makes me Dr. Eck. (But wasn't he a villain in one of the Spiderman movies?)
« Last Edit: November 06, 2010, 09:13:42 AM by Pr. David Frye, OblSB »
David M. Frye, OblSB

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+ That God may be glorified in all things.

Coach-Rev

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Re: "parish arrangement" as future policy of the ELCA?
« Reply #57 on: November 06, 2010, 08:31:37 AM »
But "amos," we have no first-hand knowledge of that and you have not provided it. We do not know who you are, whether you are a real ELCA pastor or an imposter here. We do not know the synod, the bishop, or the participants in the discussions that offend you. We do not know the context of Dr. Marty's alleged statement. You have not provided that information.
If what you say happened, that is, if certain pastors were "ridiculed" or "insulted," I would oppose that; as I have said many times on this forum over many years.
But I will not reply to unsubstantiated charges from anonymous persons.
(Actually, my usual policy is to ignore persons who post here and do not give their names, but that is sometimes set aside.)

When the tolerance for the more orthodox or "conservative" pastors in the ELCA is actually practiced (aka when they actually live up to their own call to respect bound conscience), then I will use my real name.  Otherwise I will indeed be blacklisted for having any sort of dissenting or opposing beliefs to the synod office.  Oh WAIT!  I already am blacklisted!  Silly me!  I won't go into those details since they've already been identified in a thread elsewhere http://www.alpb.org/forum/index.php?topic=2616.msg186566#msg186566

As far as what Amos has said, the synod was the Central/Southern Illinois Synod, and he is accurate in his recounting of the events there.  Those who need to know who I am on here do, and suffice to say I'm an ordained Lutheran pastor of 15 years, who considers himself fortunate to have studied under Jim NestiNgen, and could only WISH to BE Jim Nestingen!

What I find so fascinating is how quickly you, Charles, will dismiss something as unsubstantiated rumor, simply because the entire argument is not laid out in front of you.  Why are you so unwilling to accept that Marty is speaking heresy?  Why do you not see at all the concerted effort to silence orthodoxy in the ELCA, granted not in all circles at all times?  You need proof?  Taking an observer's word is apparently not good enough, even when you now have 2 observers of that assembly?

So when PB Hanson said in December of last year, that the Biblical writers don't seem to have our understanding of human sexuality, thereby stating that we here in the 21st century know better (that's Gnostic belief, by the way), you want proof?  Very well.  Go to the ELCA website and listen for yourself.  Its about halfway through the webcast.
http://www.elca.org/Who-We-Are/Our-Three-Expressions/Faithful-Mission/Town-Hall-Forum/Video-091206.aspx
He is responding to the question, "where does the Bible have anything to say on the acceptance of homosexual behavior, other than the grand generalization of "love thy neighbor?"   You'll notice he spends nearly 9 minutes and never answers the question.

This is just one more example of the ELCA's slide into heresy.  Which is EXACTLY what I have been called to protect those whom I serve from.

Jeremy Loesch

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Re: "parish arrangement" as future policy of the ELCA?
« Reply #58 on: November 06, 2010, 08:50:09 AM »
Hang in there Coach-Rev.  I believe you and am praying for you.  I've heard lots of Marty's speak before when I spent time in Chicago.  Your reporting of the statement on the irrelevancy of the doctrine of justification sounds familiar to me.

Jeremy
A Lutheran pastor growing into all sorts of things.

Charles_Austin

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Re: "parish arrangement" as future policy of the ELCA?
« Reply #59 on: November 06, 2010, 08:57:22 AM »
Someone writes:
When the tolerance for the more orthodox or "conservative" pastors in the ELCA is actually practiced (aka when they actually live up to their own call to respect bound conscience), then I will use my real name.  Otherwise I will indeed be blacklisted for having any sort of dissenting or opposing beliefs to the synod office.  Oh WAIT!  I already am blacklisted!  Silly me!
I comment:
So you wish to voice your opinion, stand up for your beliefs, and so on and so on, but you are unwilling to accept the consequences - even the bad ones - of those actions. Sorry, but convictions carry consequences, and we must be willing to bear them. If you are "punished" unjustly, your very punishment, if it happens, will be a testimony to your beliefs.
And (duh!) if you are already "blacklisted," what is the point of anonymity?

Someone writes:
As far as what Amos has said, the synod was the Central/Southern Illinois Synod, and he is accurate in his recounting of the events there.  Those who need to know who I am on here do, and suffice to say I'm an ordained Lutheran pastor of 15 years, who considers himself fortunate to have studied under Jim NestiNgen, and could only WISH to BE Jim Nestingen!
I comment:
So there is some "special list" of people who "need to know" who you are? And the rest of us? Give me a break!

Someone writes:
What I find so fascinating is how quickly you, Charles, will dismiss something as unsubstantiated rumor, simply because the entire argument is not laid out in front of you.  
I respond:
I do not "dismiss" it. But without names, dates, and places, it is rumor or at best hearsay; neither proving the truth of what is alleged.

Someone writes:
Why are you so unwilling to accept that Marty is speaking heresy?
I respond:
Because all I have is one sentence, reported from an unreliable unnamed source who is a partisan in the matter. Dr. Marty might be wrong, but you saying so doesn't make it true, nor does it mean that I have to accept your judgment.

Someone writes:
Why do you not see at all the concerted effort to silence orthodoxy in the ELCA, granted not in all circles at all times?  You need proof?  Taking an observer's word is apparently not good enough, even when you now have 2 observers of that assembly?
I respond:
I will take that "observer's word" when I know who the observer is and when I have all the information necessary.

Someone writes:
So when PB Hanson said in December of last year, that the Biblical writers don't seem to have our understanding of human sexuality, thereby stating that we here in the 21st century know better (that's Gnostic belief, by the way), you want proof?  Very well.  Go to the ELCA website and listen for yourself.  Its about halfway through the webcast.
I respond:
Been down that road too many times.

Someone writes:
This is just one more example of the ELCA's slide into heresy.  Which is EXACTLY what I have been called to protect those whom I serve from.
I ask:
So, your status on the clergy roster of the ELCA, your installation into your present call, and your daily responsibilities within that call have, by prayer and promise, bound you to what you now say is "a slide into heresy"? So what do you do about those prayers, those promises?
This may be a rush to judgment, but you seem to be one of those to whom I reluctantly say: I understand your position. I do not understand how, with that position, you remain in the ELCA, or want to.