Author Topic: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.  (Read 11423 times)

Mike Bennett

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #120 on: October 24, 2010, 12:28:16 PM »
So, why won't you just direct everyone to where the official statements can be found by posting a link? Are the the ELCA's official statements of belief not on the web anywhere?

Sorry, George, I have a day job. I can't drop everything to do your research for you.

Here: http://www.elca.org/What-We-Believe/Statements-of-Belief/ELCA-Confession-of-Faith.aspx

It appears you did have time to mock me by posting the same links that I copied from the Gnesio website.

Remember this post? Notice the similarities?

These are the links included in that "biased source". Could you please tell us which ones are to websites that are not either "the ELCA's own description of itself" or the website of an ELCA congregation?

http://www.elca.org/What-We-Believe/New-or-Returning-to-Church/Dig-Deeper/The-Bible.aspx

http://www.elca.org/What-We-Believe/New-or-Returning-to-Church/Dig-Deeper/The-Holy- Trinity.aspx

http://www2.elca.org/questions/Results.asp?recid=58

http://www.herchurch.org/

http://www.elca.org/What-We-Believe/New-or-Returning-to-Church/Dig-Deeper/The-Holy- Spirit.aspx

http://www2.elca.org/questions/Results.asp?recid=4

http://www.elca.org/What-We-Believe/New-or-Returning-to-Church/Dig-Deeper/Salvation.aspx

http://www.elca.org/What-We-Believe/New-or-Returning-to-Church/Dig-Deeper/The- Resurrection.aspx

http://www.elca.org/What-We-Believe/New-or-Returning-to-Church/Dig-Deeper/Virgin-Birth.aspx

http://www.elca.org/What-We-Believe/New-or-Returning-to-Church/Dig-Deeper/Satan.aspx

https://www.elcabop.org/Home/UnderstandMyBenefits/Health/ELCAPrimary/HospMed/~/

http://www.elca.org/What-We-Believe/New-or-Returning-to-Church/Dig-Deeper/Homosexuality-and-the- ELCA.aspx


I expect rude snarkiness like that from Austin or Stoffregen. I don't expect it from one of the moderators.


Copying  a link to a page and then a list of links to sub pages, each under the "Did Deeper" category, and claiming they are the same, and then making a snarky comment about the one who provided the link to the main page in response to your churlish demand is, well, exactly what would be expected of you.

Mike Bennett
“What peace can there be, so long as the many whoredoms and sorceries of your mother Jezebel continue?”  2 Kings 9:22

George Erdner

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #121 on: October 24, 2010, 02:02:02 PM »
Copying  a link to a page and then a list of links to sub pages, each under the "Did Deeper" category, and claiming they are the same, and then making a snarky comment about the one who provided the link to the main page in response to your churlish demand is, well, exactly what would be expected of you.

Mike Bennett

I claimed that they amounted to different pages in the same book. Which they are. The link to the main page with no explanation, comment, or acknowledgement of the difference between "official" beliefs that don't even address most of the points under discussion compared to pages that do address those points, was a snarky and dismissive reply. I said that before, and I still stand behind it.

LutherMan

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #122 on: October 24, 2010, 03:24:01 PM »
The ELCA's web site is the ELCA's public face to the world. What is posted there represents the ELCA. You may say it is not accurate, it is an error, it is wrong, but the fact is that it is posted there, and until, and unless, it is changed, it does, de facto, represent the ELCA publicly.

Why you don't, can't, or refuse, to get this point, is what is escaping me.


A conspicuous note at the "Dig Deeper" page explicitly says the writings there do not in fact represent ELCA's beliefs.  One might ask why then they are there.  But to pretend they are what they explicitly say they are not is, well, I can't say here what that is.
 
Mike Bennett

Yet the 'New or Returning to Church?' page states this:

Quote
http://www.elca.org/What-We-Believe/New-or-Returning-to-Church.aspx
The ELCA invites you into our community of Christian faith. Welcome, and explore.
What is Christianity?
Who is Jesus Christ? What do his teachings mean? Get the fundamentals on Christianity.
What is Lutheranism?
Find out how our Lutheran system of beliefs fits in the context of the Christian faith tradition.
How We Worship
Worship lies at the heart of how Lutherans understand ourselves together. Learn more about how we worship.
Glossary
Have a specific question? Try searching our glossary of terms and topics to gain insight on faith-based themes.
Dig Deeper
Desire a better understanding of our beliefs? Dig deeper and learn more.

James_Gale

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #123 on: October 24, 2010, 03:34:56 PM »
The ELCA's web site is the ELCA's public face to the world. What is posted there represents the ELCA. You may say it is not accurate, it is an error, it is wrong, but the fact is that it is posted there, and until, and unless, it is changed, it does, de facto, represent the ELCA publicly.

Why you don't, can't, or refuse, to get this point, is what is escaping me.


A conspicuous note at the "Dig Deeper" page explicitly says the writings there do not in fact represent ELCA's beliefs.  One might ask why then they are there.  But to pretend they are what they explicitly say they are not is, well, I can't say here what that is.
 
Mike Bennett

Yet the 'New or Returning to Church?' page states this:

Quote
http://www.elca.org/What-We-Believe/New-or-Returning-to-Church.aspx
The ELCA invites you into our community of Christian faith. Welcome, and explore.
What is Christianity?
Who is Jesus Christ? What do his teachings mean? Get the fundamentals on Christianity.
What is Lutheranism?
Find out how our Lutheran system of beliefs fits in the context of the Christian faith tradition.
How We Worship
Worship lies at the heart of how Lutherans understand ourselves together. Learn more about how we worship.
Glossary
Have a specific question? Try searching our glossary of terms and topics to gain insight on faith-based themes.
Dig Deeper
Desire a better understanding of our beliefs? Dig deeper and learn more.

And that undercuts Mike's point not one whit. 

George Erdner

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #124 on: October 24, 2010, 03:53:40 PM »
The ELCA's web site is the ELCA's public face to the world. What is posted there represents the ELCA. You may say it is not accurate, it is an error, it is wrong, but the fact is that it is posted there, and until, and unless, it is changed, it does, de facto, represent the ELCA publicly.

Why you don't, can't, or refuse, to get this point, is what is escaping me.


A conspicuous note at the "Dig Deeper" page explicitly says the writings there do not in fact represent ELCA's beliefs.  One might ask why then they are there.  But to pretend they are what they explicitly say they are not is, well, I can't say here what that is.
 
Mike Bennett

Yet the 'New or Returning to Church?' page states this:

Quote
http://www.elca.org/What-We-Believe/New-or-Returning-to-Church.aspx
The ELCA invites you into our community of Christian faith. Welcome, and explore.
What is Christianity?
Who is Jesus Christ? What do his teachings mean? Get the fundamentals on Christianity.
What is Lutheranism?
Find out how our Lutheran system of beliefs fits in the context of the Christian faith tradition.
How We Worship
Worship lies at the heart of how Lutherans understand ourselves together. Learn more about how we worship.
Glossary
Have a specific question? Try searching our glossary of terms and topics to gain insight on faith-based themes.
Dig Deeper
Desire a better understanding of our beliefs? Dig deeper and learn more.

Exactly! The conflicting claims and disclaimers are ambiguous at best and downright confusing at worst. As with most things the ELCA publishes about their beliefs, they post two opposing statements, and leave it to the reader to pick for himself which one to believe.

Orwell's Newspeak was bad enough, trying to convince people that black is white. The ELCA's position is that black is black and that black is also white. That means that pointing to one page as being the authoritative and official position without comment or explanation is only telling half the story.

What Mike said was half of the truth. Posting the rest of the truth doesn't "undercut" Mike's point, but it completes it and brings it to total fullness.

ptmccain

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Stick a fork in this topic, it's done.
« Reply #125 on: October 24, 2010, 04:01:23 PM »
OK, I don't know about anyone/everyone else, but at this point, I'm helplessly lost and confused by the direction this topic has taken. Seems now we are talking not about the differences between the ELCA and the LCMS, but now debating the differences between the ELCA's "official" statements on the ELCA's web site, or if they are on the web site, or where they are on the web site and the statements as they are found on the "official" ELCA web site and whether, or to what extent, they can said to be indicative of what the ELCA believes.

But, seems The LCMS's official web site is a perfectly fine and useful tool to ascertain what The LCMS believes, teaches, confesses, stands for and represents as its position, to the world.

So, I guess that's a good thing.   :)

But on that that, Dear Esteemed Moderators, I suggest sticking a fork in this one, it's done.

George Erdner

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Re: Stick a fork in this topic, it's done.
« Reply #126 on: October 24, 2010, 04:15:01 PM »
But on that that, Dear Esteemed Moderators, I suggest sticking a fork in this one, it's done.

Where you anointed the official judge of when threads should be ended, just like Austin was appointed official corrector of all errors? Maybe I can get anointed as official judge of when a new thread is redundant because there's already a thread about the same topic running.


James_Gale

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Re: Stick a fork in this topic, it's done.
« Reply #127 on: October 24, 2010, 04:53:31 PM »
OK, I don't know about anyone/everyone else, but at this point, I'm helplessly lost and confused by the direction this topic has taken. Seems now we are talking not about the differences between the ELCA and the LCMS, but now debating the differences between the ELCA's "official" statements on the ELCA's web site, or if they are on the web site, or where they are on the web site and the statements as they are found on the "official" ELCA web site and whether, or to what extent, they can said to be indicative of what the ELCA believes.

But, seems The LCMS's official web site is a perfectly fine and useful tool to ascertain what The LCMS believes, teaches, confesses, stands for and represents as its position, to the world.

So, I guess that's a good thing.   :)

But on that that, Dear Esteemed Moderators, I suggest sticking a fork in this one, it's done.

I'll accept your claim that you are "lost and confused by the direction this topic has taken."  But I'm not sure how you can be.  If you read back through this thread, you'll notice that you played a key role in shaping its direction.  And you'll also notice that it was never about differences between the LCMS and ELCA.  It was always about the merits of a self-styled "primer."

I don't object to closing this thread, though.  Here's what I said at the beginning of this thread:

"What's the point of this post?  It seems to me to be just one more thread in which people can bitch about the state of the ELCA.  We've already got plenty of those."

I stand by this statement, which has proved correct.

ptmccain

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Re: Stick a fork in this topic, it's done.
« Reply #128 on: October 24, 2010, 04:55:45 PM »
Where you anointed the official judge of when threads should be ended, just like Austin was appointed official corrector of all errors? Maybe I can get anointed as official judge of when a new thread is redundant because there's already a thread about the same topic running.

George, don't be such a grump. I'm merely expressing *my opinion* that this topic is "done." If you don't think it is, that's your opinion.

Good grief.

Charles_Austin

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #129 on: October 24, 2010, 04:57:17 PM »
Mr. Gale writes (emphasis added):
I don't object to closing this thread, though.  Here's what I said at the beginning of this thread:
"What's the point of this post?  It seems to me to be just one more thread in which people can bitch about the state of the ELCA. We've already got plenty of those."
I stand by this statement, which has proved correct.

I comment:
Amen to what Mr. Gale said.

ptmccain

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Re: Stick a fork in this topic, it's done.
« Reply #130 on: October 24, 2010, 04:58:35 PM »
But I'm not sure how you can be.

I wish I was as sure as you are that I'm not sure that I am confused.  :)

Actually, it was Richard who took the thread into the direction debating the merits/demerits of using the ELCA.ORG site to figure out what the ELCA believes. But, as I said, this has now, in my opinion, devolved into a circular argument about what is and what is not, official, or where it is, or is not found, or if it even exists.

Which confuses me.

Which is why I said perhaps it is time to shut this topic down, which suggestion has George all grumpy now.


A Catholic Lutheran

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #131 on: October 24, 2010, 05:03:55 PM »
Give it up, Brian, whatever you say, they will say you don't believe it.

and...
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen
I can just hear them praying, "God, I think you that I don't have a faith like that Brian in Yuma …."

But they are unwilling to try and define that faith.

They also seem to have the belief that whatever I argue for, must be my belief. It isn't. It wasn't for my favorite seminary professor who stated: "You should be able to argue both sides of an issue with conviction." Even worse, I raise questions, and they assume how I must answer the questions -- and often they are wrong.

Perhaps it is a difference between having a Thinking preference -- which means, among other things, typically means standing outside the argument -- as kind of an impersonal observer and commentator. In contrast, those with a Feeling preference (about 70% of clergy) -- which means, among other things, typically being personally involved in the argument -- it becomes "about me and my beliefs".

I ask...  Are these responses closer to the "Pharisee" from today's reading (Luke 18) or the "Tax Collector"?

I guess I will counter the whole MMPI thing with an observation about the cognitive distortion around "forecasting" and "mind-reading," not to mention the good practice of limiting one's comments to "I" statements.  But since Brian and Charles have already heard my prayers way out here in West-by-God-Virginia and spoken for me, I will not get too bent out of shape...  That is even though I am one of those "Feeling" types...

Pax Christi;
Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS
 

ptmccain

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #132 on: October 24, 2010, 05:06:37 PM »
Oh, not a discussion of MMPI!

 ;D

Does anyone know if the Rams played today, and if so, did they win?

I need to check on that.

ptmccain

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #133 on: October 24, 2010, 05:07:50 PM »
Oh, no, the Rams lost. Bummer.

LutherMan

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #134 on: October 24, 2010, 05:08:51 PM »
Some believe this, and some believe that.  Big tent....
This is mainly what I end up getting from ELCA.org...