Author Topic: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.  (Read 11457 times)

James_Gale

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Re: Question for Richard Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally
« Reply #105 on: October 24, 2010, 12:57:05 AM »
I believe wholeheartedly that dialog within the ELCA, even in disagreement, grounding itself in Scripture, Creeds, and Confessions cannot help but be fruitful in time.

Pr. Sabin --

My greatest regret is that conversation within the ELCA has not been grounded in Scripture, the Creeds, and the Confessions.  The CWA's decisions regarding sex and sexuality obviously were the catalyst for the division within the ELCA.  But this was never primarily about sex.  It was about authority and the foundation of our faith.

I don't know where we would be now if conversations about sex and sexuality had been grounded in Scripture, the Creeds, and the Confessions.  But I suspect that at the very least, we'd be better equipped to deal with the situation honestly and with integrity.

Perhaps it is not too late.

Jim
« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 01:00:06 AM by James_Gale »

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #106 on: October 24, 2010, 01:00:17 AM »

I don't want to step on my brother Jerry's toes here, Brian, but while you and I are able to use the same set of words to describe the faith of our church, you and I do not agree about the essential, core faith of our church.

Then we have different essential, core faiths. I agree fully with our ELCA's confession of faith. What do you believe?

<Sigh!>

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Re: Question for Richard Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally
« Reply #107 on: October 24, 2010, 01:06:11 AM »
I believe wholeheartedly that dialog within the ELCA, even in disagreement, grounding itself in Scripture, Creeds, and Confessions cannot help but be fruitful in time.

Pr. Sabin --

My greatest regret is that conversation within the ELCA has not been grounded in Scripture, the Creeds, and the Confessions.  The CWA's decisions regarding sex and sexuality obviously were the catalyst for the division within the ELCA.  But this was never primarily about sex.  It was about authority and the foundation of our faith.

I don't know where we would be now if conversations about sex and sexuality had been grounded in Scripture, the Creeds, and the Confessions.  But I suspect that at the very least, we'd be better equipped to deal with the situation honestly and with integrity.

Jim

Jim:

Again, I tend to agree with you. I have not been happy with the way the conversation has been handled. I might agree with the outcome, but to me it lacks an adequately expressed  rationale. I believe that the sexuality studies were an embarrassment of shallowness (not blaming any members of the committees here). I have a suspicion that the ELCA organization is not structured in a way that allows for serious theological debate or discernment. Yet this is not to say that improvements cannot be made nor that productive theological conversation cannot occur. There will, however, still be disagreements about how the authority of Scripture as foundation of our faith operates... but as you say the conversation may very well look and feel different.

SPS

Timotheus Verinus

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #108 on: October 24, 2010, 01:18:44 AM »
... while you and I are able to use the same set of words to describe the faith of our church, you and I do not agree about the essential, core faith of our church.  

Then we have different essential, core faiths. I agree fully with our ELCA's confession of faith. What do you believe?

I'm made mindful of the joint circuit/conference meeting I was at a month ago, where LCMS pastors later remarked, "they say the words, but the definitions are so different. And they admit that the new definitions are not what has been used by the church throughout her history."

The words are empty Brian. We have come to know that when you say "confession of faith," it means something very strange to us, to many in the ELCA who inked those very words, to  500 year old definitions we were taught,  and the 1000+ year old fathers' writings. The authors of the document, that you cite, tell you that. You change the Gospel, but seem blind that you have done so. That is plain 1984 doublespeak. We agree with a confession of faith, that has centuries of affirmation in meaning. What do you believe? Something you made up in your head? It surely seems so.

Jim and Steven (Sabin) are right. That's the conversation that should have been had. To Steven (Tibbetts) - <Sigh!> indeed.

TV
« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 01:33:14 AM by TVerinus »
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Charles_Austin

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #109 on: October 24, 2010, 06:33:25 AM »
And this has been the reason I have concluded that serious theological discussion with the LC-MS as that church body is currently constituted is fruitless.
We say, with all our hearts:
We believe in God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
We believe that God's word is revealed in scripture.
We believe that Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary, crucified and rose again.
We confess with all our hearts the words of the Creeds.
And you in the LC-MS say.... We don't believe you. We declare that you do not believe what you say you believe.
That pretty much is the end of the discussion.

swbohler

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #110 on: October 24, 2010, 07:04:17 AM »
So why has this gone on for 8 pages (so far)?  And why do you post and post and post?

Charles_Austin

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #111 on: October 24, 2010, 07:09:57 AM »
Pastor Bohler writes (to me, I think):
So why has this gone on for 8 pages (so far)?  And why do you post and post and post?

I respond:
You know why.
1. A desire to offer more accurate information about the ELCA than is hurled around by partisans or non-ELCA critics here.
2. So as not to give the field over to people such as you and let people like you dominate the discussion.
3. Because I can.

Why do you post? It appears you have some difficulties within your own Synod or district or probably the winkel, and yet you are among those who like to slop about in the internal troubles of the ELCA.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 07:20:00 AM by Charles_Austin »

swbohler

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #112 on: October 24, 2010, 07:55:03 AM »
Rev. Austin,

I don't believe I have posted anything on this thread about the ELCA; I think you would be hard pressed to find much anywhere from me (on this site or elsewhere) criticizing the ELCA.  Partly because, as you wrote, my own church body has its problems that concern me more.  And partly because (due to "people like you", to borrow a phrase) I think the ELCA is beyond hope as a Lutheran body.  But go ahead, keep flailing and failing.  Hey, maybe you can find a spelling error here to make you feel better, superior, and smarter than the rest.

Dan Fienen

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #113 on: October 24, 2010, 08:04:27 AM »
Are the musings posted on the ELCA web site in the section "What we believe" in agreement with the official, constitutional confessional statement of the ELCA, or are they at variance from how those official confessional statements and documents have been understood by Lutherans through the ages?

Which more accurately describes the faith that is believed, taught and confessed by the institutions of the ELCA?

If we use the same words but understand them differently are we confessing the same faith?

Dan
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Timotheus Verinus

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #114 on: October 24, 2010, 09:06:20 AM »
I continue the conversation because, battling definitions cannot be the last word. There needs o be genuine conversation. That means we have to move the foundation back a step and redefine what we say.

Charles, what I hear, and strive to have you and others correct is for example: a Trinitarian definition that is either plain modalism, or worse a half modal half polytheism that has a lady Holy Spirit separate from the the "others." Those are the types of expressions I hear when we say Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I hear about a Gospel of Mercy-(Eleison) as if it is anchored in fairness and justice. What we have been taught is a merciful propitiation that is anything but fair or just, but a love that supercedes what would be just. The justice is that we all deserve to be cast aside equally, not that we all have equal rights to His blessings. None of us, not one is found worthy in ourselves.

The conversation that is needed is to clear up, what you and we mean when you speak thusly, praying that there is a distinction we have not heard, and a foundation from which we can continue conversation, and reach agreement. It seems to me that since ELCA is the one who says they have a new revelation from the Holy Spirit, that "She" has shown a new thing, then ELCA is the one who must initiate and clarify what this new thing is. No? How can we be held to account what your "new thing" is?

TV

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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #115 on: October 24, 2010, 10:13:06 AM »
I'm made mindful of the joint circuit/conference meeting I was at a month ago, where LCMS pastors later remarked, "they say the words, but the definitions are so different. And they admit that the new definitions are not what has been used by the church throughout her history."

Give examples.

Quote
The words are empty Brian. We have come to know that when you say "confession of faith," it means something very strange to us, to many in the ELCA who inked those very words, to  500 year old definitions we were taught,  and the 1000+ year old fathers' writings.

Give examples where I am straying from traditional definitions.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Charles_Austin

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #116 on: October 24, 2010, 10:21:05 AM »
Give it up, Brian, whatever you say, they will say you don't believe it.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #117 on: October 24, 2010, 10:23:17 AM »
Give it up, Brian, whatever you say, they will say you don't believe it.

I can just hear them praying, "God, I think you that I don't have a faith like that Brian in Yuma …."

But they are unwilling to try and define that faith.

They also seem to have the belief that whatever I argue for, must be my belief. It isn't. It wasn't for my favorite seminary professor who stated: "You should be able to argue both sides of an issue with conviction." Even worse, I raise questions, and they assume how I must answer the questions -- and often they are wrong.

Perhaps it is a difference between having a Thinking preference -- which means, among other things, typically means standing outside the argument -- as kind of an impersonal observer and commentator. In contrast, those with a Feeling preference (about 70% of clergy) -- which means, among other things, typically being personally involved in the argument -- it becomes "about me and my beliefs".
« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 10:34:35 AM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Mike Bennett

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #118 on: October 24, 2010, 12:18:34 PM »
The ELCA's web site is the ELCA's public face to the world. What is posted there represents the ELCA. You may say it is not accurate, it is an error, it is wrong, but the fact is that it is posted there, and until, and unless, it is changed, it does, de facto, represent the ELCA publicly.

Why you don't, can't, or refuse, to get this point, is what is escaping me.


A conspicuous note at the "Dig Deeper" page explicitly says the writings there do not in fact represent ELCA's beliefs.  One might ask why then they are there.  But to pretend they are what they explicitly say they are not is, well, I can't say here what that is.
 
Mike Bennett
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Mike Bennett

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #119 on: October 24, 2010, 12:23:32 PM »
So, why won't you just direct everyone to where the official statements can be found by posting a link? Are the the ELCA's official statements of belief not on the web anywhere?

Sorry, George, I have a day job. I can't drop everything to do your research for you.

Here: http://www.elca.org/What-We-Believe/Statements-of-Belief/ELCA-Confession-of-Faith.aspx

Which is essentially where the links on the Gnesio website send a person.

Peace in the Lord Jesus Christ!
Rob Buechler

Not true.  In each case the Gnesio links send one to a "Dig Deeper" sub page which has a conspicuous note saying what it is and what it is not.  Richard's link is to the official statement of beliefs.

Mike Bennett
“What peace can there be, so long as the many whoredoms and sorceries of your mother Jezebel continue?”  2 Kings 9:22