Author Topic: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.  (Read 11426 times)

George Erdner

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #75 on: October 23, 2010, 12:28:24 PM »
From our official Confession of Faith.

So, to return to the original Gneiso comparison, they compared several different subject areas. They were:

The Bible

2.02.c. The canonical Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are the written Word of God. Inspired by God's Spirit speaking through their authors, they record and announce God's revelation centering in Jesus Christ. Through them God's Spirit speaks to us to create and sustain Christian faith and fellowship for service in the world.

2.03. This church accepts the canonical Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments as the inspired Word of God and the authoritative source and norm of its proclamation, faith, and life.


Quote
Trinity

2.01. This church confesses the Triune God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

2.04. This church accepts the Apostles', Nicene, and Athanasian Creeds as true declarations of the faith of this church.


Quote
Holy Spirit

2.02.c. The canonical Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are the written Word of God. Inspired by God's Spirit speaking through their authors, they record and announce God's revelation centering in Jesus Christ. Through them God's Spirit speaks to us to create and sustain Christian faith and fellowship for service in the world.

2.04. This church accepts the Apostles', Nicene, and Athanasian Creeds as true declarations of the faith of this congregation.


Quote
Creation

2.04. This church accepts the Apostles', Nicene, and Athanasian Creeds as true declarations of the faith of this congregation.

2.06. This church accepts the other confessional writings in the Book of Concord, namely, the Apology of the Augsburg Confession, the Smalcald Articles and the Treatise, the Small Catechism, the Large Catechism, and the Formula of Concord, as further valid interpretations of the faith of the Church.


Consider, especially, Luther's explanation to the First Article of the Creed.

Quote
Justification

2.05. This church accepts the Unaltered Augsburg Confession as a true witness to the Gospel, acknowledging as one with it in faith and doctrine all churches that likewise accept the teachings of the Unaltered Augsburg Confession.

Consider, especially, Article IV on justification -- also in the Apology.

Quote
The Resurrection of Jesus
The Virgin Birth of Jesus

2.04. This church accepts the Apostles', Nicene, and Athanasian Creeds as true declarations of the faith of this church.

Quote
The Devil
Church Fellowship
Abortion
Homosexuality
Women’s Ordination

As the earliest Christians defined the faith in the creeds without mentioning these issues, so we too, confess our Christian faith without requiring uniformity of beliefs on these and many other issues.

For a summary of what the ELCA believes:

2.07. This church confesses the Gospel, recorded in the Holy Scriptures and confessed in the ecumenical creeds and Lutheran confessional writings, as the power of God to create and sustain the Church for God's mission in the world.

But what do those pithy little snippets mean?

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #76 on: October 23, 2010, 12:30:13 PM »
From our official Confession of Faith.

So, to return to the original Gneiso comparison, they compared several different subject areas. They were:

The Bible

2.02.c. The canonical Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are the written Word of God. Inspired by God's Spirit speaking through their authors, they record and announce God's revelation centering in Jesus Christ. Through them God's Spirit speaks to us to create and sustain Christian faith and fellowship for service in the world.

2.03. This church accepts the canonical Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments as the inspired Word of God and the authoritative source and norm of its proclamation, faith, and life.


Quote
Trinity

2.01. This church confesses the Triune God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

2.04. This church accepts the Apostles', Nicene, and Athanasian Creeds as true declarations of the faith of this church.


Quote
Holy Spirit

2.02.c. The canonical Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are the written Word of God. Inspired by God's Spirit speaking through their authors, they record and announce God's revelation centering in Jesus Christ. Through them God's Spirit speaks to us to create and sustain Christian faith and fellowship for service in the world.

2.04. This church accepts the Apostles', Nicene, and Athanasian Creeds as true declarations of the faith of this congregation.


Quote
Creation

2.04. This church accepts the Apostles', Nicene, and Athanasian Creeds as true declarations of the faith of this congregation.

2.06. This church accepts the other confessional writings in the Book of Concord, namely, the Apology of the Augsburg Confession, the Smalcald Articles and the Treatise, the Small Catechism, the Large Catechism, and the Formula of Concord, as further valid interpretations of the faith of the Church.


Consider, especially, Luther's explanation to the First Article of the Creed.

Quote
Justification

2.05. This church accepts the Unaltered Augsburg Confession as a true witness to the Gospel, acknowledging as one with it in faith and doctrine all churches that likewise accept the teachings of the Unaltered Augsburg Confession.

Consider, especially, Article IV on justification -- also in the Apology.

Quote
The Resurrection of Jesus
The Virgin Birth of Jesus

2.04. This church accepts the Apostles', Nicene, and Athanasian Creeds as true declarations of the faith of this church.

Quote
The Devil
Church Fellowship
Abortion
Homosexuality
Women’s Ordination

As the earliest Christians defined the faith in the creeds without mentioning these issues, so we too, confess our Christian faith without requiring uniformity of beliefs on these and many other issues.

For a summary of what the ELCA believes:

2.07. This church confesses the Gospel, recorded in the Holy Scriptures and confessed in the ecumenical creeds and Lutheran confessional writings, as the power of God to create and sustain the Church for God's mission in the world.

But what do those pithy little snippets mean?

They are the official statements of what the ELCA believes. If anyone wants to know what the ELCA believes, read them.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

A Catholic Lutheran

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #77 on: October 23, 2010, 12:52:29 PM »
They are the official statements of what the ELCA believes. If anyone wants to know what the ELCA believes, read them.

But, as we all know, everything is a matter of personal interpretation...  So all this stuff means...

...nothing.

Pax Christi;
Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #78 on: October 23, 2010, 12:58:13 PM »
They are the official statements of what the ELCA believes. If anyone wants to know what the ELCA believes, read them.

But, as we all know, everything is a matter of personal interpretation...  So all this stuff means...

...nothing.

It also means that you and I, even with our differences, can be good, faithful members of the same church because we agree about the essential, core faith of our church.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

George Erdner

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #79 on: October 23, 2010, 01:09:53 PM »
They are the official statements of what the ELCA believes. If anyone wants to know what the ELCA believes, read them.

But, as we all know, everything is a matter of personal interpretation...  So all this stuff means...

...nothing.

It also means that you and I, even with our differences, can be good, faithful members of the same church because we agree about the essential, core faith of our church.

This is about attempting to compare what the ELCA teaches with what the LC-MS teaches. Where is the official ELCA statement that says everyone can make up their own religious teachings to suit their fancy whenever and wherever they choose? Please provide a link to that official statement so that we can all see that it is an official position of the ELCA, and not some crap you invented on your own.

A Catholic Lutheran

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #80 on: October 23, 2010, 01:13:01 PM »
They are the official statements of what the ELCA believes. If anyone wants to know what the ELCA believes, read them.

But, as we all know, everything is a matter of personal interpretation...  So all this stuff means...

...nothing.

It also means that you and I, even with our differences, can be good, faithful members of the same church because we agree about the essential, core faith of our church.

My god.  We really need a "head shaking" emoticon in this forum. 

Or maybe a "wretching" emoticon.  Either one could apply right now. :-p

Pax Christi;
Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS

ptmccain

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Question for Richard Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally
« Reply #81 on: October 23, 2010, 01:15:24 PM »
Richard,

I'm still trying to understand your disagreement with using the ELCA.ORG site as a way to document what the ELCA says it believes.

The Gnesio document cites both the LCMS and the ELCA web site. The quotes from the LCMS web site include a variety of things from Q/A type resources, documents, etc. The ELCA quotes use the material the ELCA itself posts under the "What We Believe" section of their web site.

Now, I understand that you do not like the fact that the ELCA posts things under the "What We Believe" section of its web site that you find objectionable, that you believe contradict "official" assertions elsewhere, but would you agree that in fact this *is* the very problem the ELCA faces?

In other words, what do you disagree with in my post from earlier this morning:

Perhaps, without intending to, the Gnesio folks have underscored the true problem facing the ELCA.

The ELCA constitution refers to historic Scripture, creeds and confessions and says this is what the ELCA believes.

But, in reality, as sadly demonstrated on the ELCA web site, the very things said to be believed, are subject to severe doubt, distortion, contradiction and even outright denial, in the institutions and leadership structure of the ELCA, as evidenced by the ELCA's official web site posting statements of faith that are diametrically opposed, at many points, to the historic doctrinal standards mentioned in the ELCA constitution. We are all aware of how extensively such things have been taught, for a very long time, to up and coming ELCA pastors throughout the ELCA's seminaries.

Therefore, if we grant Richard's point—and upon further reflection, I'm more than willing to do that—that the Gnesio folks are not quoting from "official" statements of the ELCA, we have an even ore disturbing reality to deal with, in any number of ways, documented for all to see on the ELCA web site.


Kyrie eleison. Christe eleison. Kyrie eleison.



ptmccain

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #82 on: October 23, 2010, 01:17:22 PM »
It also means that you and I, even with our differences, can be good, faithful members of the same church because we agree about the essential, core faith of our church.

Throughout his voluminous quantity of posts on this forum, I have read Brian Stoffregren call into question, doubt, contort, twist and otherwise deny virtually every significant doctrinal assertion in even the most basic confessions of the ELCA: the creeds.

Therefore, I have no idea, nor do I believe it would ever be possible to know, what he means when he refers to the "core faith of our church." Sadly, for Brian, I'm not sure he even knows.

This is, again, an example of the profound problems in the ELCA from the standpoint of its core confession. There is one thing stated on paper, but it is subject to death from a thousand cuts by pastors such as Brian S.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2010, 01:24:29 PM by ptmccain »

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #83 on: October 23, 2010, 01:24:44 PM »
It also means that you and I, even with our differences, can be good, faithful members of the same church because we agree about the essential, core faith of our church.

I have read Brian Stoffregren, in his voluminous postings on this board, call into question, doubt, contort, twist and otherwise deny virtually every significant doctrinal assertion in even the most basic confessions of the ELCA: the creeds.

Like what? I have stated that I do not believe that scriptures prohibit same-gender unions; but homosexuality and same-gender relationships are not articles in the creeds. I have affirmed the resurrection of Christ and the virginal conception and the creation of heaven and earth by God. So, what specifically are you referring to?
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Charles_Austin

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #84 on: October 23, 2010, 01:44:17 PM »
ptmccain writes:
Throughout his voluminous quantity of posts on this forum, I have read Brian Stoffregren call into question, doubt, contort, twist and otherwise deny virtually every significant doctrinal assertion in even the most basic confessions of the ELCA: the creeds.
I comment:
This is, of course, wrong, judgmental and so deep an error as to rattle the earth's core. Because for such a statement to be true, one has to accept - in total and without the tiniest reservation - ptmccain's view of the world, theology and the church.
It's as if one complains that the French "incorrectly" spell "castle" "c-h-a-t-e-a-u" and denounce them for it.
I'll run the risk of saying it again: While I do not agree with everything Pastor Stoffregen posts, he has frequently declared his belief in things that he is accused of denying. And, in over 40 years of seminary studies, workshops, pastors' meetings, synodical conventions, congregation Bible studies, Lutheran World Federation conferences and barroom conversations with pastors, it is Pastor Stoffregen's approach to scriptures and methods of exegesis that I have encountered in ULCA, LCA, and ELCA settings; not the approach of ptmccain or his cohorts on this discussion board.
And I marvel at the obsession that ptmccain has about the errors he perceives in the ELCA, when - from what I read here - the LC-MS has its own problems that might need his attention.

kls

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #85 on: October 23, 2010, 01:50:39 PM »
Mr. Erdner writes:
OK, Smart ***, does this ...

I note:
Another example of the level of discussion fostered by some frequent posters here.
And Pr. Stoffregan quickly followed up with this:
Better than being a dumb sh*t.

Yes, lurkers on the fence, wouldn't you want to visit THEIR churches tomorrow?  Seriously, I'm no moderator, but might you both try to act like the mature men in Christ that you profess to be?  This is EXACTLY what I was referring to in my post above about the lack of consistency on the part of the moderators.  You're both making ptmccain look like an angel right now.   ;D  Nice job!

peter_speckhard

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #86 on: October 23, 2010, 01:53:23 PM »
Charles, will you please give the rest of us just a little credit. Brian says he believes in the inspiration of Scripture, but he also says he believes the Scriptures are like his own sermons. The same goes for al his affirmations of various beliefs--words without meaning. The reason theologians are fleeing the ELCA in droves is because Brian's take is indeed the reigning view in the ELCA but not in the history of Lutheranism. He is free to post here, as are those who disagree with him, but let's elevate the discussion just a tad. I've deleted a bunch of posts on this thread.

ptmccain

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #87 on: October 23, 2010, 01:58:44 PM »
You're both making ptmccain look like an angel right now.   ;D  Nice job!

Oh, dear Deaconess, my heart is filled with joy to be so described, I hasten now to report the same to my spiritual directoress, The Bishop of All Pinkness Herself, Her Eminence, Barbie.


kls

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #88 on: October 23, 2010, 02:07:40 PM »
You're both making ptmccain look like an angel right now.   ;D  Nice job!
Oh, dear Deaconess, my heart is filled with joy to be so described, I hasten now to report the same to my spiritual directoress, The Bishop of All Pinkness Herself, Her Eminence, Barbie.

I'll send you some pink angel wings to go along with your Bishop Barbie costume.  Oooops, wrong thread.   ;D ;D

George Erdner

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #89 on: October 23, 2010, 03:04:54 PM »
Mr. Erdner writes:
OK, Smart ***, does this ...

I note:
Another example of the level of discussion fostered by some frequent posters here.
And Pr. Stoffregan quickly followed up with this:
Better than being a dumb sh*t.

Yes, lurkers on the fence, wouldn't you want to visit THEIR churches tomorrow?  Seriously, I'm no moderator, but might you both try to act like the mature men in Christ that you profess to be?  This is EXACTLY what I was referring to in my post above about the lack of consistency on the part of the moderators.  You're both making ptmccain look like an angel right now.   ;D  Nice job!

Everyone has a limit to how far they can be pushed without pushing back. Perhaps that's a difference between the ELCA and the LC-MS. One might think people in the LC-MS don't have a "breaking point" that when they are pushed beyond it, they break.