Author Topic: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.  (Read 11443 times)

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #45 on: October 22, 2010, 08:21:33 PM »
Are the things posted on the ELCA's website under the title "What We Believe" not what the ELCA believes? Since when can we not trust that the information contained on the ELCA's website that purports to be "What We Believe" has not been "approved by a churchwide, synodical, or congregational body"? Doesn't the fact that it's published by the ELCA imply that it's "approved"?

No. Except for official announcements in The Lutheran, I don't think anything else in the magazine is "approved" by the ELCA. Even you could write an article and perhaps have it published. My hunch is that the same editorial license is given to those creating the web pages.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #46 on: October 22, 2010, 08:25:08 PM »
The ELCA's web site is the ELCA's public face to the world. What is posted there represents the ELCA. You may say it is not accurate, it is an error, it is wrong, but the fact is that it is posted there, and until, and unless, it is changed, it does, de facto, represent the ELCA publicly.

Why you don't, can't, or refuse, to get this point, is what is escaping me.

The witness everyone of us make is less than perfect. We live with that and trust God to make good use of it anyway.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Lutheranistic

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #47 on: October 22, 2010, 08:32:02 PM »
Mr. Gale had it right way back upstream. The referred "chart" probably should have said, "Here are the official LCMS teachings and here is what the ELCA has posted on its website under the heading "What we Believe".

That said, though, if it's on the ELCA.org website under the heading "What we Believe", one would hope that more editorial supervision is involved than would be the case in evaluating a freelance submission from George. Or me.

pbnorth3

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #48 on: October 22, 2010, 09:09:48 PM »
So, why won't you just direct everyone to where the official statements can be found by posting a link? Are the the ELCA's official statements of belief not on the web anywhere?

Sorry, George, I have a day job. I can't drop everything to do your research for you.

Here: http://www.elca.org/What-We-Believe/Statements-of-Belief/ELCA-Confession-of-Faith.aspx

Which is essentially where the links on the Gnesio website send a person.

Peace in the Lord Jesus Christ!
Rob Buechler

Team Hesse

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #49 on: October 22, 2010, 09:20:24 PM »

Does anyone even know who the Gnesio folks are?

I believe the site is run by Pastor Donavon Riley and Pastor Tyler Andor.  Donavon was one of the last graduate assistants of Gerhard Forde and is now a pastor in the LCMS.  Tyler is an LCMC pastor.  Both men are graduates of Luther Seminary.  I think we could safely say they are Fordians.  My personal guess is that most of the postings come from my good friend Donavon; he is a very smart and driven man. 
Lou

pbnorth3

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #50 on: October 22, 2010, 10:01:27 PM »
The ELCA's web site is the ELCA's public face to the world. What is posted there represents the ELCA. You may say it is not accurate, it is an error, it is wrong, but the fact is that it is posted there, and until, and unless, it is changed, it does, de facto, represent the ELCA publicly.

Why you don't, can't, or refuse, to get this point, is what is escaping me.


It is strange indeed that this point isn't getting through. There are reasons I believe that this isn't getting through, but discussing them would only set off fireworks. Let me just say, denial is not a river in Egypt.

Peace in the Lord Jesus Christ!
Rob Buechler

Charles_Austin

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #51 on: October 22, 2010, 10:05:25 PM »
So the site is run by people with a natural hostility to what the ELCA is. Fine.It's a free country.
Meanwhile, how about evaluating and learning about the ELCA through study of the real documents, as Pastor Johnson suggested. That is the starting point for serious scholarly evaluation.
Or....
how about some contact with real ELCA pastors: Pastor Johnson, Pastor Tibbetts, Pastor Wolf, Pastor Stoffregen, and this humble correspondent? We are all active, in-good-status, loyal functioning members of the ELCA, ordained to the ministry of Word and Sacrament and with years of experience doing so. Some of us have been on synodical committees, national committees and have been voting members at assemblies, both synodical and national. Some of us have worked for those awful people in Chicago or know them well. We have been sharing ourselves on this forum for years; so I don't see the need to recommend going to some website run by hostile partisans.
There may be a couple of other ELCA'ers around here too; but I know of two or three who quit this forum because they were disgusted by the antics of some frequent posters.

swbohler

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #52 on: October 22, 2010, 10:14:56 PM »
"The logic of your argument, Paul, forgive me, but it is bearing an unsettling resemblance to the pre-time out Paul McCain." -- Rev. Johnson, moderator


A veiled threat?  Or simple observation (or maybe, an Austinian "interpretation")?

Michael Slusser

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #53 on: October 22, 2010, 10:23:18 PM »
Let me just say, denial is not a river in Egypt.

Peace in the Lord Jesus Christ!
Rob Buechler

It's a dyslexic mountain in Alaska!  :D

Peace,
Michaeil
Fr. Michael Slusser
Retired Roman Catholic priest and theologian

Dan Fienen

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #54 on: October 22, 2010, 10:27:25 PM »
OK, if one wanted to comment on, or even find out what the ELCA believes, teaches, and confesses, one should go not to what the ELCA says on its web site as "What We Believe" but to the official doctrinal standards in the constitution.  Correct so far?  And even that may not be definitive because everyone has their own interpretation and who is to say which interpretation is "correct" and which is not (or even if it is useful to talk about a correct or incorrect interepretation).  May one ask how closely the pastors, congregations and institutions of the ELCA are expected to conform to the official doctrinal statements of the ELCA?

Dan
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

George Erdner

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #55 on: October 22, 2010, 10:42:17 PM »
So, why won't you just direct everyone to where the official statements can be found by posting a link? Are the the ELCA's official statements of belief not on the web anywhere?

Sorry, George, I have a day job. I can't drop everything to do your research for you.

Here: http://www.elca.org/What-We-Believe/Statements-of-Belief/ELCA-Confession-of-Faith.aspx

It appears you did have time to mock me by posting the same links that I copied from the Gnesio website.

Remember this post? Notice the similarities?

These are the links included in that "biased source". Could you please tell us which ones are to websites that are not either "the ELCA's own description of itself" or the website of an ELCA congregation?

http://www.elca.org/What-We-Believe/New-or-Returning-to-Church/Dig-Deeper/The-Bible.aspx

http://www.elca.org/What-We-Believe/New-or-Returning-to-Church/Dig-Deeper/The-Holy- Trinity.aspx

http://www2.elca.org/questions/Results.asp?recid=58

http://www.herchurch.org/

http://www.elca.org/What-We-Believe/New-or-Returning-to-Church/Dig-Deeper/The-Holy- Spirit.aspx

http://www2.elca.org/questions/Results.asp?recid=4

http://www.elca.org/What-We-Believe/New-or-Returning-to-Church/Dig-Deeper/Salvation.aspx

http://www.elca.org/What-We-Believe/New-or-Returning-to-Church/Dig-Deeper/The- Resurrection.aspx

http://www.elca.org/What-We-Believe/New-or-Returning-to-Church/Dig-Deeper/Virgin-Birth.aspx

http://www.elca.org/What-We-Believe/New-or-Returning-to-Church/Dig-Deeper/Satan.aspx

https://www.elcabop.org/Home/UnderstandMyBenefits/Health/ELCAPrimary/HospMed/~/

http://www.elca.org/What-We-Believe/New-or-Returning-to-Church/Dig-Deeper/Homosexuality-and-the- ELCA.aspx


I expect rude snarkiness like that from Austin or Stoffregen. I don't expect it from one of the moderators.

George Erdner

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #56 on: October 22, 2010, 10:49:22 PM »
So the site is run by people with a natural hostility to what the ELCA is. Fine.It's a free country.

Regardless of who runs the site, it copied material from the ELCA website and attributed it, including posting links (something that you don't seem to be capable of). And based on what Pastor Johnson posted as the link to the "official" information, it's the same basic webpage. Granted, the page is subdivided into "chapters", one page per chapter. The only difference is that Pastor Johnson posted a link to the general statement of overall core belief, while the pages on the details are other "chapters" in the same basic webpage.

So, it's probably time for you to accuse me of "trolling", or to say "whatever", since all you can do is kvetch but can't actually provide any information yourself.

how about some contact with real ELCA pastors: Pastor Johnson, Pastor Tibbetts, Pastor Wolf, Pastor Stoffregen, and this humble correspondent?

I won't speak for the others, but you haven't given a clear, accurate answer to any questions of that type for as long as I've been a participant in here. Asking you anything is a royal waste of time.

pbnorth3

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #57 on: October 22, 2010, 11:59:07 PM »
Let me just say, denial is not a river in Egypt.

Peace in the Lord Jesus Christ!
Rob Buechler

It's a dyslexic mountain in Alaska!  :D

Peace,
Michaeil

Hey I've been there. That is a great looking range.  ;)

Peace in the Lord Jesus Christ!
Rob Buechler

Richard Johnson

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #58 on: October 23, 2010, 12:28:48 AM »
"The logic of your argument, Paul, forgive me, but it is bearing an unsettling resemblance to the pre-time out Paul McCain." -- Rev. Johnson, moderator


A veiled threat?  Or simple observation (or maybe, an Austinian "interpretation")?

Or perhaps a cautionary word to a Christian brother who has previously admitted, quite honorably, that his "time out" had caused him to reflect on and consequently try to change his previous attitude.

But I suppose interpreting it that way would require you to exercise the 8th commandment.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Richard Johnson

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Re: Differences between ELCA and LCMS doctrinally, an interesting look.
« Reply #59 on: October 23, 2010, 12:31:21 AM »
So, why won't you just direct everyone to where the official statements can be found by posting a link? Are the the ELCA's official statements of belief not on the web anywhere?

Sorry, George, I have a day job. I can't drop everything to do your research for you.

Here: http://www.elca.org/What-We-Believe/Statements-of-Belief/ELCA-Confession-of-Faith.aspx

It appears you did have time to mock me by posting the same links that I copied from the Gnesio website.

Remember this post? Notice the similarities?

These are the links included in that "biased source". Could you please tell us which ones are to websites that are not either "the ELCA's own description of itself" or the website of an ELCA congregation?

http://www.elca.org/What-We-Believe/New-or-Returning-to-Church/Dig-Deeper/The-Bible.aspx

http://www.elca.org/What-We-Believe/New-or-Returning-to-Church/Dig-Deeper/The-Holy- Trinity.aspx

http://www2.elca.org/questions/Results.asp?recid=58

http://www.herchurch.org/

http://www.elca.org/What-We-Believe/New-or-Returning-to-Church/Dig-Deeper/The-Holy- Spirit.aspx

http://www2.elca.org/questions/Results.asp?recid=4

http://www.elca.org/What-We-Believe/New-or-Returning-to-Church/Dig-Deeper/Salvation.aspx

http://www.elca.org/What-We-Believe/New-or-Returning-to-Church/Dig-Deeper/The- Resurrection.aspx

http://www.elca.org/What-We-Believe/New-or-Returning-to-Church/Dig-Deeper/Virgin-Birth.aspx

http://www.elca.org/What-We-Believe/New-or-Returning-to-Church/Dig-Deeper/Satan.aspx

https://www.elcabop.org/Home/UnderstandMyBenefits/Health/ELCAPrimary/HospMed/~/

http://www.elca.org/What-We-Believe/New-or-Returning-to-Church/Dig-Deeper/Homosexuality-and-the- ELCA.aspx


I expect rude snarkiness like that from Austin or Stoffregen. I don't expect it from one of the moderators.


Actually, notice the difference? The one I cited actually quotes official ELCA documents.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS