Author Topic: Voter's Guide for Serious Christians  (Read 11180 times)

LutherMan

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Re: Voter's Guide for Serious Christians
« Reply #105 on: October 31, 2010, 09:32:16 PM »
If the dems lose control of both the House and the Senate, does anyone here expect Obama to go to a more centrist position la Clinton?

George Erdner

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Re: Voter's Guide for Serious Christians
« Reply #106 on: October 31, 2010, 10:04:32 PM »
You implied pretty strongly that you considered Medicare unconstitutional.  Fine, it's a free country.  If you want to get the rest of the country to agree with you so you can get rid of this tyrannical unconstitutional program, then, as Voltaire said, "I disagree with what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it."  (That Voltaire, such a drama queen.)

That's correct. But where did you get the idea that I had any intention or desire to do anything about it? There are enough unconstitutional laws on the books to keep an army of lawyers busy for decades. The first step in the process is replacing the people currently in Congress with people who have actually read the Constitution and understand it. Then, we need to elect a President how believes in and honors the Constitution and keep that President in office long enough to get a majority on the Supreme Court who actually respect the law. Then, and only then, will the time be right to start worrying about all of the many unconstitutional laws on the books.

To put that in church terms, for the ELCA to be brought back to Scriptural integrity, most of the bishops need to be replaced, especially the Presiding Bishop. Until then, any attempts to restore the church to faithfulness to scripture and the confessions is an exercise in futility.

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Voter's Guide for Serious Christians
« Reply #107 on: November 01, 2010, 01:18:04 AM »

So Medicare is unconstitutional?

Yes.
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
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Charles_Austin

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Re: Voter's Guide for Serious Christians
« Reply #108 on: November 01, 2010, 07:48:40 AM »
Drinking tea these days, Steven? Or planning to move to the mountains of Montana?  ;D ;)

jpetty

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Re: Voter's Guide for Serious Christians
« Reply #109 on: November 01, 2010, 12:26:41 PM »

George Erdner

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Re: Voter's Guide for Serious Christians
« Reply #110 on: November 01, 2010, 12:38:03 PM »

So Medicare is unconstitutional?

Yes.

Please specify the grounds.

That was already done. Amendment 10, remember? And did you forget this post?

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

And?

My mistake, I meant Amendment 10.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

The power to provide universal health care is not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states. Therefore, the authority (power) to create any sort of government health care system is reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Still, it was good that you read the 9th amendment, on general principles.


So Medicare is unconstitutional?

Tell you what, below are the powers and limitations on what Congress is permitted to do. It's from Article 1, sections 9 and 10. You tell me (and everyone else) where the Constitution gives Congress the authority to create Medicare.

Section 8 - Powers of Congress

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

Section 9 - Limits on Congress

The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person.

The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.

No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.

(No capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or Enumeration herein before directed to be taken.) (Section in parentheses clarified by the 16th Amendment.)

No Tax or Duty shall be laid on Articles exported from any State.

No Preference shall be given by any Regulation of Commerce or Revenue to the Ports of one State over those of another: nor shall Vessels bound to, or from, one State, be obliged to enter, clear, or pay Duties in another.

No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law; and a regular Statement and Account of the Receipts and Expenditures of all public Money shall be published from time to time.

No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince or foreign State.


The fact that there are unconstitutional laws on the books that were never challenged in court is no excuse for passing additional unconstitutional laws.


Are you planning on having separate conversations with each person who attempts to refute what you say?

Kurt Weinelt

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Re: Voter's Guide for Serious Christians
« Reply #111 on: November 01, 2010, 12:56:20 PM »
Medicare obviously violates the 10th Amendment. Just as obviously, any politico (D,R,or I) who tries to address medicare's unconstitutionality will be hit with "mediscare" tactics from his political opposition, so there's really not much point in addressing this breach of constitutional intent.  It is the beast that cannot be killed.
Kurt
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George Erdner

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Re: Voter's Guide for Serious Christians
« Reply #112 on: November 01, 2010, 01:12:15 PM »
Medicare obviously violates the 10th Amendment. Just as obviously, any politico (D,R,or I) who tries to address medicare's unconstitutionality will be hit with "mediscare" tactics from his political opposition, so there's really not much point in addressing this breach of constitutional intent.  It is the beast that cannot be killed.
Kurt

I think it could be eliminated. It would require that all of these things be accomplished:

The first step in the process is replacing the people currently in Congress with people who have actually read the Constitution and understand it. Then, we need to elect a President how believes in and honors the Constitution and keep that President in office long enough to get a majority on the Supreme Court who actually respect the law. Then, and only then, will the time be right to start worrying about all of the many unconstitutional laws on the books.


I'm not optimistic about those things happening in my lifetime, but then I don't have that many years left.

Kurt Weinelt

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Re: Voter's Guide for Serious Christians
« Reply #113 on: November 01, 2010, 02:04:51 PM »
George, if all you say happens then the function of Medicare would belong to the states as the Constitution intends. But Mediscare tactics trump all attempts at reform.  I'm not cynical, just realistic--medicare (and social security) reform efforts are forms of political suicide. Wish it were't so..... :(
Kurt
"Learning about history is an antidote to the hubris of the present, the idea that everything in OUR lives is the ultimate." David McCullough

miss daisy

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Re: Voter's Guide for Serious Christians
« Reply #114 on: November 01, 2010, 02:30:21 PM »
If SS and medicare are discontinued then I guess I'd become a welfare recipient! My husband had his own business so always paid the maximum in
SS payements. I also worked and paid into it....So were we just contibutors to the retired at that time?
So is welfare illegal too? Then guys you'd better start taking a collection for me to survive.
Yes my husband had a retirement policy which I have been collecting...but it was for only 10 years. That stops in December.
I'll be 80 in June...guess according to Oboma it's euthanasia for me then anyway.
But hey there's a bright side, shouldn't be to many years before I'm one of those saints we celebrate today!

Kurt Weinelt

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Re: Voter's Guide for Serious Christians
« Reply #115 on: November 01, 2010, 03:06:25 PM »
If SS and medicare are discontinued then I guess I'd become a welfare recipient! My husband had his own business so always paid the maximum in
SS payements. I also worked and paid into it....So were we just contibutors to the retired at that time?
So is welfare illegal too? Then guys you'd better start taking a collection for me to survive.
Yes my husband had a retirement policy which I have been collecting...but it was for only 10 years. That stops in December.
I'll be 80 in June...guess according to Oboma it's euthanasia for me then anyway.
But hey there's a bright side, shouldn't be to many years before I'm one of those saints we celebrate today!
Miss Daisy, no one is going to discontinue medicare or social security. No one will even reform it, for that matter. It certainly needs reform, because as you point out every dollar we paid into social security was spent the same year the government took it from us---on current retirees.  Every social security dollar collected each year is spent that year, and the "Social Security Trust Fund" is a nice-sounding myth. 

The issue that being discussed was the constitutionality of Medicare, when the 10th Amendment leaves things such as the regulation of health care,  education, weddings, divorces, births/deaths, etc. to the states.  But Medicare is a now sacred cow (maybe even a Golden Calf? ;)), and no politician who stands for elections will dare touch it.  Ever.
Kurt 
"Learning about history is an antidote to the hubris of the present, the idea that everything in OUR lives is the ultimate." David McCullough

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Re: Voter's Guide for Serious Christians
« Reply #116 on: November 01, 2010, 04:00:29 PM »
If SS and medicare are discontinued then I guess I'd become a welfare recipient! My husband had his own business so always paid the maximum in
SS payements. I also worked and paid into it....So were we just contibutors to the retired at that time?

In short, yes.  If you go back and look you will see them termed as SSI "taxes."  They were not contributions.  That was the lie that was perpetuated on the American electorate by both parties.

Social Security and Medicare were designed as a Ponzi scheme. 

This is part of the reason people love Social Security so much.  So far the beneficiaries have been at the top and middle of the scheme.  Those people made money or broke even.  We at the bottom have to pay the piper.  Unless we can keep borrowing from the Chinese.  They have been a pretty good ATM so far. 

Brian J. Bergs
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Kurt Weinelt

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Re: Voter's Guide for Serious Christians
« Reply #117 on: November 01, 2010, 04:07:49 PM »

In short, yes.  If you go back and look you will see them termed as SSI "taxes."  They were not contributions.  That was the lie that was perpetuated on the American electorate by both parties.

Social Security and Medicare were designed as a Ponzi scheme.  

This is part of the reason people love Social Security so much.  So far the beneficiaries have been at the top and middle of the scheme.  Those people made money or broke even.  We at the bottom have to pay the piper.  Unless we can keep borrowing from the Chinese.  They have been a pretty good ATM so far.
Brian J. Bergs
Minneapolis, MN
Please indulge me if I tinker with your analogy some. Rather than Red China being an "ATM machine", it is more of a payday loan business at a cheesy strip center. Easy to get cash, nearly impossible to pay off the finance charges.
Kurt
« Last Edit: November 01, 2010, 04:15:28 PM by Kurt Weinelt »
"Learning about history is an antidote to the hubris of the present, the idea that everything in OUR lives is the ultimate." David McCullough

jpetty

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Re: Voter's Guide for Serious Christians
« Reply #118 on: November 01, 2010, 04:28:29 PM »
Medicare obviously violates the 10th Amendment. Just as obviously, any politico (D,R,or I) who tries to address medicare's unconstitutionality will be hit with "mediscare" tactics from his political opposition, so there's really not much point in addressing this breach of constitutional intent.  It is the beast that cannot be killed.
Kurt

If it was so obviously unconstitutional, then the "tenthers" should take it to the Supreme Court.  As presently constituted, the Court would probably agree with you--if that's what their corporate masters wanted anyway.

miss daisy

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Re: Voter's Guide for Serious Christians
« Reply #119 on: November 01, 2010, 05:00:09 PM »
Thanks to all of you for clearing that up for me. yes it is taxes! Oldtimers disease on my part? ;-)