Author Topic: So what, non-ELCAers. are you going to do?  (Read 7761 times)

LutherMan

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Re: So what, non-ELCAers. are you going to do?
« Reply #90 on: November 01, 2010, 05:19:27 PM »
Both the WELS & LCMS have new presidents since then, while ELS doesn't.    I do get the impression that Pres. Schroeder and Pres. Harrison will get along well.

Steve Ames

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Re: So what, non-ELCAers. are you going to do?
« Reply #91 on: November 02, 2010, 12:22:25 AM »
Craig and Mike,
I don’t believe you understand my comments so let me try it this way:

WELS President Schroeder is proposing:
"Encouraging the holding of free conferences among confessional Lutherans. A free conference is a forum for discussion of theology and doctrine in a setting that does not involve fellowship."

Keep in mind the rest of my comments are my opinion based somewhat on conversations I’ve had.

LCMS President Harrison is proposing within the LCMS some type of format for discussing doctrinal/ practice differences.  This naturally leads to the realization that such internal LCMS discussions probably parallel the doctrinal/ practice differences the LCMS has with the ELS/ WELS so why not also engage in these same discussions on an inter-synodical level?  Regardless whether the LCMS can find internal consensus, the expected outcome of inter-synodical talks should be that they will not lead to any change in current inter-synodical relations or current church fellowship practice.

I’m not aware whether President Harrison has made any invitation or even shown any interest in participating in any future free conferences.  Possibly not since the LCMS is tied up with dealing with cooperative joint ministries with the ELCA and discussing having internal LCMS discussions.

The talks proposed by LCMS President Kieschnick suffered from horrible timing of also giving some appearance of  an expected tolerance of the LCMS’ failure to resolve the Yankee Stadium Prayer Controversy on the basis of Holy Scripture rather than the final resolution based on LCMS Bylaws; an unacceptable circumstance.  The proposed talks also had a defined expected outcome – some type of joint work. – which is getting the cart before the horse.

Concerning the LCMS use of the expression of “cooperation in externals” there appears to be no LCMS consensus on the meaning of the term and its proper application, as such. “cooperation in externals” is an unhelpful expression thus having no basis for discussion.

The biggest thing to remember about my comments are that they are solely my opinion and were offered to suggest that non-ELCA folks have more productive things to do rather than concerning themselves with the ever increasingly liberal, hostile to Holy Scripture ELCA.


Well Mike, our Texas Rangers didn’t win it all but what an exceptional year!
John 6
 28Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
 29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

Matt Staneck

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Re: So what, non-ELCAers. are you going to do?
« Reply #92 on: November 02, 2010, 10:26:19 AM »
Steve,

If the Cappadocians were correct and even right thinking (orthodox thoughts) about God constitutes worship, could we really meet together to think right thoughts about God since we're not in fellowship with one another? 

I happen to think such meetings are a great idea, but I also wonder if this is complicated because of the WELS view of us/view on worshiping with other Christians.

M. Staneck
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Scott6

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Re: So what, non-ELCAers. are you going to do?
« Reply #93 on: November 02, 2010, 10:49:16 AM »
Steve,

If the Cappadocians were correct and even right thinking (orthodox thoughts) about God constitutes worship, could we really meet together to think right thoughts about God since we're not in fellowship with one another?  

I happen to think such meetings are a great idea, but I also wonder if this is complicated because of the WELS view of us/view on worshiping with other Christians.

M. Staneck

FWIW, theoria in the Cappadocian sense is not simply about right thoughts in the sense of proper propositional cognitions about God but is rather contemplative, seeking God through a process of meditation and askesis.  A good analog in Lutheranism would be the entire process of oratio-meditatio-tentatio seen as a whole.

Matt Staneck

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Re: So what, non-ELCAers. are you going to do?
« Reply #94 on: November 02, 2010, 10:56:41 AM »
Steve,

If the Cappadocians were correct and even right thinking (orthodox thoughts) about God constitutes worship, could we really meet together to think right thoughts about God since we're not in fellowship with one another?  

I happen to think such meetings are a great idea, but I also wonder if this is complicated because of the WELS view of us/view on worshiping with other Christians.

M. Staneck

FWIW, theoria in the Cappadocian sense is not simply about right thoughts in the sense of proper propositional cognitions about God but is rather contemplative, seeking God through a process of meditation and askesis.  A good analog in Lutheranism would be the entire process of oratio-meditatio-tentatio seen as a whole.

Pr. Yakimow, noted.  But would not our discussing these thoughts together be done contemplatively, perhaps even devotionally?  I guess I don't see how the two could possibly be separated.  Since as the Cappadocians also note, theology can only be done right by one who actually believes in what they are talking about.  So in the sense of us coming together to discuss confessional Lutheranism, something both church bodies hold dear, how would we avoid delving into this contemplative askesis?

M. Staneck
Matt Staneck, Pastor
St. John's Evangelical Lutheran Church
Queens, NY

Scott6

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Re: So what, non-ELCAers. are you going to do?
« Reply #95 on: November 02, 2010, 11:04:21 AM »
Steve,

If the Cappadocians were correct and even right thinking (orthodox thoughts) about God constitutes worship, could we really meet together to think right thoughts about God since we're not in fellowship with one another?  

I happen to think such meetings are a great idea, but I also wonder if this is complicated because of the WELS view of us/view on worshiping with other Christians.

M. Staneck

FWIW, theoria in the Cappadocian sense is not simply about right thoughts in the sense of proper propositional cognitions about God but is rather contemplative, seeking God through a process of meditation and askesis.  A good analog in Lutheranism would be the entire process of oratio-meditatio-tentatio seen as a whole.

Pr. Yakimow, noted.  But would not our discussing these thoughts together be done contemplatively, perhaps even devotionally?  I guess I don't see how the two could possibly be separated.  Since as the Cappadocians also note, theology can only be done right by one who actually believes in what they are talking about.  So in the sense of us coming together to discuss confessional Lutheranism, something both church bodies hold dear, how would we avoid delving into this contemplative askesis?

M. Staneck

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but neither do I know how a WELSian would respond.  Certainly discussing theology is participating in sharing the mind of Christ together, but if this is objectionable to the WELS is beyond my ken.  I just raised it because I have a soft spot for Cappadocian theoria (the quote underneath my picture is from Greg Naz).

Matt Staneck

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Re: So what, non-ELCAers. are you going to do?
« Reply #96 on: November 02, 2010, 11:30:12 AM »

Welcome to the askew concept of free conferences under a unit concept of fellowship.

Walther encouraged worship and the blessing of the Holy Spirit for the doctrinal free conferences held in the nineteenth century in the spirit of similar gathering of Roman Catholics and Lutherans in worship to discuss their differences.  The LCMS doctrinal statement, Theology of Fellowship, adopted in 1965 establishes this well.

The WELS maintains that no worship can be conducted at a free conferences, and this is the model that conservative Lutheran free conferences must follow.  Perhaps that is why such discussion and teaching now happens as "inside baseball" at symposiums.

Mike

Then I guess my question to Steve remains.  How can we come together and discuss these things without delving into worship?  Unless we had a couple atheists up there take each church bodies place in discussing the theology, I just don't see how worship can be avoided.

M. Staneck
Matt Staneck, Pastor
St. John's Evangelical Lutheran Church
Queens, NY

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: So what, non-ELCAers. are you going to do?
« Reply #97 on: November 02, 2010, 12:39:09 PM »

Welcome to the askew concept of free conferences under a unit concept of fellowship.

Walther encouraged worship and the blessing of the Holy Spirit for the doctrinal free conferences held in the nineteenth century in the spirit of similar gathering of Roman Catholics and Lutherans in worship to discuss their differences.  The LCMS doctrinal statement, Theology of Fellowship, adopted in 1965 establishes this well.

The WELS maintains that no worship can be conducted at a free conferences, and this is the model that conservative Lutheran free conferences must follow.  Perhaps that is why such discussion and teaching now happens as "inside baseball" at symposiums.

Mike

Then I guess my question to Steve remains.  How can we come together and discuss these things without delving into worship?  Unless we had a couple atheists up there take each church bodies place in discussing the theology, I just don't see how worship can be avoided.

Mark Allan Powell, correctly, in my opinion, writes in his commentary on Matthew the proper response to the coming of Jesus is not worship (although that is good,) but repentance. What preaching we have recorded of Jesus is: "Repent (not worship) for the kingdom of heaven is at hand" (Mt 4:17). Powell points to Jesus' rebuke of cities, because they did not repent (Mt 11:20-24) as the basis for his argument.

It would seem more significant (and biblical) to ask if we can come together without repentance.

Another correction: while I've often heard that "orthodoxy" means "correct praise," when I actually look up ὀρθόδοξος, in a Greek Lexicon, the given meaning is "right opinion." While, δόξα, is often translated "praise" or "glory," it comes from the verb, δοκέω, which means "to think, suppose, imagine" or the sense, "it seems to me." δόξα was generally used for those things that "seemed good to us," thus the translation of glory or praise.

Orthodoxy is more about a group deciding what is correct thinking. Thus, it seems to me, we are constantly in a paradox: determining what is correct thinking and always in need of repenting for wrong thinking, words, and actions.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]