Author Topic: The Bible Summarized in Only a Few Words  (Read 2682 times)

ptmccain

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Re: The Bible Summarized in Only a Few Words
« Reply #30 on: October 09, 2010, 03:30:29 PM »
It's interesting to me that whenever I do a radio interview with Issues, Etc. [the best Lutheran radio show out there], the producer, Jeff, always tells me to make sure that any assertion I make about Christian doctrine, I back it up by quoting the pertinent texts. Seems a lot of laity are like those Berean Christians whom Luke described this way:

"Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. "

Prooftext: Acts 17:11

Forgive me, but it seems to me the problems in modernist/revisionist/apostate Lutheranism can be traced directly back to the separation of doctrinal musings from the text of the Scripture.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The Bible Summarized in Only a Few Words
« Reply #31 on: October 09, 2010, 03:53:17 PM »
Forgive me, but it seems to me the problems in modernist/revisionist/apostate Lutheranism can be traced directly back to the separation of doctrinal musings from the text of the Scripture.

I would rather say "the separation of doctrinal musings from the message of the Scripture." My guess that Luther's opponents could find texts of scriptures to support their positions (as Luther and his followers also did). We've already stated that Jehovah Witnesses find texts of scriptures that support their beliefs, as do Baptists, Methodists, etc.

For Luther and for us, it is the message of God that comes to us as Law and Gospel that is most important; not little details like how long a man's (or woman's) hair should be.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Dan Fienen

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Re: The Bible Summarized in Only a Few Words
« Reply #32 on: October 09, 2010, 04:15:45 PM »
Brian, have you ever carefully studied the Bible passages that the JWs use to support their assertions?  Not all references to the Scriptures or quoting of proof texts are created equal.  You talk as though when Luther referenced a Scripture passage to support a point, it is equal to when a JW does it.  The difference is that frequently when the JWs do that it is Scripture out of context or very carefully translated (and biased in translation, not in accordance with the best scholarship on the passage) to support the point.  Luther usually used passages that in context actually talked about and meant what Luther was citing them for.  You are correct.  Just quoting a Bible passage that as it is quoted seems to say what I want it to say is not enough.  One has to carefully consider the context to see if it actually supports the point.  But that is not pure subjectivity - which seems to be the point you want to make.

Dan
Pr. Daniel Fienen
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The Bible Summarized in Only a Few Words
« Reply #33 on: October 09, 2010, 04:30:28 PM »
Brian, have you ever carefully studied the Bible passages that the JWs use to support their assertions?  Not all references to the Scriptures or quoting of proof texts are created equal.  You talk as though when Luther referenced a Scripture passage to support a point, it is equal to when a JW does it.

What makes Luther's way different? I don't imagine it would take too much work for a Roman Catholic or a Methodist to criticize the way Luther used passages -- and support their arguments with other passages about the importance of works/fruit/obedience. That's one reason why Lutherans and Roman Catholics continue to have their theological differences.

Quote
The difference is that frequently when the JWs do that it is Scripture out of context or very carefully translated (and biased in translation, not in accordance with the best scholarship on the passage) to support the point.  Luther usually used passages that in context actually talked about and meant what Luther was citing them for.  You are correct.  Just quoting a Bible passage that as it is quoted seems to say what I want it to say is not enough.  One has to carefully consider the context to see if it actually supports the point.  But that is not pure subjectivity - which seems to be the point you want to make.

I agree. A verse out of context is like the word "bar" without a sentence. By itself, there are numerous ways of understanding what it means. Only within the context of a sentence does its meaning become clear. "He was a member of the bar." "He passed the bar." "He went into the bar and stood at the bar." "He locked the door with a metal bar." "He is the best preacher in town, bar none." "He ate a bar of chocolate." "He was mauled by a grizzly bar."

While we may quote one verse, e.g., with the Creed; its message is found by looking at it within the larger contexts: the paragraph, the book, and the Bible, and orthodox Christian beliefs, e.g., the Trinity, the natures of Christ.

I've had JW's at my door who couldn't wait to leave. When they start talking biblical stuff, I pull out my Greek NT and challenge their translations and contexts. After doing that once, they never came back to my door. :)
« Last Edit: October 09, 2010, 04:32:25 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Mike Bennett

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Re: The Bible Summarized in Only a Few Words
« Reply #34 on: October 10, 2010, 10:00:36 PM »
If the term "kitsch" offended you, I apologize.

It did, and I accept your apology.

Mike Bennett
“What peace can there be, so long as the many whoredoms and sorceries of your mother Jezebel continue?”  2 Kings 9:22