Author Topic: The Virus Keeps Spreading  (Read 4872 times)

ptmccain

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Re: The Virus Keeps Spreading
« Reply #60 on: October 09, 2010, 03:55:08 PM »
1-800-GOD-SELF

George Erdner

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Re: The Virus Keeps Spreading
« Reply #61 on: October 09, 2010, 03:55:41 PM »
George, where ever you have found yourself, lead your church. Yes, you! You do not need to be ordained to be a leader. Teach Sunday school but without malice or agenda, just teach it honestly. Become known as a wise and trustworthy presence that people want to listen to and want to respect. Lead your congregation from within and trust that if you are faithful to the word of God that God will use whatever happens there for a blessed purpose.



I am a leader within my congregation. I serve on council and engage in leadership both by what I say and by example. But even as a leader, I do not pick the pastor's sermon topics. He does an outstanding job and doesn't need any interference from me. Tomorrow, in addition to playing guitar for Sunday School, worship, and the special Blessing of the Animals service in the afternoon, I'll also be the lector and will preach the children's sermon. Our pastor has decided to go away from the lectionary for a while to concentrate on some Old Testament issues, so tomorrow his sermon will be about the Ten Commandments. I will be teaching the children that God gave us the Ten Commandments so that we'd know right from wrong, and that the Bible, and only the Bible, is where we learn what God expects of us. I won't be including any Gospel in the Children's message because that will be covered in both Sunday School and in the pastor's real sermon. I can only fit so much into three to five minutes.

My point is quite simple. Suppose a church and/or its pastor "chooses" not to engage the question of sexuality.


How did this discussion of the ELCA's ill-conceived policies regarding sex get twisted into being about pastors not engaging the question of sexuality? What does engaging the question of sexuality have to do with the ELCA's confused and ambiguous social statement? There is a world of difference between engaging in the question of sexuality, and discussing the ELCA's ludicrous Social Statements adopted in August 2009. Of course pastors need to preach and teach what the Bible says about sexual behaviour. That's what being a pastor is all about. Discussing the ELCA's pathetic revisionist statements regarding the standards for clergy is a different issue.


Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The Virus Keeps Spreading
« Reply #62 on: October 09, 2010, 04:10:43 PM »
I was going to respond to Charles, but I thought better of it, when my reprogramming at the ALPB "reorientation camp" took over and I started meditating using Bishop Barbie's goddess beads.

I read your post before your meditative-induced change. You are right, we all need to do a better job. It takes more than just the best curriculum available to train our people to live and act differently than the people of the world. When churched people are getting divorced at the same rate as unchurched people, we need to figure out what we are doing wrong. I, and I suspect all of us, assume that having Jesus present in our lives should make a difference -- including in our marriages. Statistics, like those at http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm indicate that church membership does not make much of a difference in divorce rates. One of the lowest rates, 21%, comes from atheists/agnostics! Lutherans also have a 21% divorce rate -- tied with Catholics for the lowest among faith groups.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Charles_Austin

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Re: The Virus Keeps Spreading
« Reply #63 on: October 09, 2010, 04:23:47 PM »
Mr. Erdner asks:
How did this discussion of the ELCA's ill-conceived policies regarding sex get twisted into being about pastors not engaging the question of sexuality?

I respond with the answer:
Mr. Erdner wrote earlier: The fact of the matter is, at the church I am a member of, "the issue" is a non-issue.
And today he writes: Of course pastors need to preach and teach what the Bible says about sexual behaviour.
That's how.

George Erdner

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Re: The Virus Keeps Spreading
« Reply #64 on: October 09, 2010, 04:57:21 PM »
Mr. Erdner asks:
How did this discussion of the ELCA's ill-conceived policies regarding sex get twisted into being about pastors not engaging the question of sexuality?

I respond with the answer:
Mr. Erdner wrote earlier: The fact of the matter is, at the church I am a member of, "the issue" is a non-issue.
And today he writes: Of course pastors need to preach and teach what the Bible says about sexual behaviour.
That's how.


When in quotes like that, "the issue" is not about what the Bible teaches about sex. In a thread entitled "The Virus Keeps Spreading" where the virus in question is ordaining sexually active homosexuals, my reference to "the issue" is clearly about the twisted Social Statements approved by the 2009 CWA, and not about teaching what the Bible says about sex. After all, what the ELCA's Social Statements say and what the Bible says have nothing to do with each other. They are two totally separate and unrelated things.

Charles_Austin

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Re: The Virus Keeps Spreading
« Reply #65 on: October 09, 2010, 10:44:42 PM »
Mr. Erdner writes:
After all, what the ELCA's Social Statements say and what the Bible says have nothing to do with each other. They are two totally separate and unrelated things.

I comment:
And if you truly believe that, then that is the exact reason you should want your ELCA congregation to be talking about it, the way many others are. But if one lacks the guts to do that....

George Erdner

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Re: The Virus Keeps Spreading
« Reply #66 on: October 09, 2010, 11:29:57 PM »
Mr. Erdner writes:
After all, what the ELCA's Social Statements say and what the Bible says have nothing to do with each other. They are two totally separate and unrelated things.

I comment:
And if you truly believe that, then that is the exact reason you should want your ELCA congregation to be talking about it, the way many others are. But if one lacks the guts to do that....

All in good time, and all in good order. It is my intention to accomplish something important, not to just go off half-cocked and to something for the sake of being able to say to you that I've done something. Frankly, I don't give a damn if you think I have sufficient "guts" or not. It's not like your opinion is worth more than a pitcher of warm spit.