Author Topic: Luke 14:27 NRSV  (Read 5220 times)

ptmccain

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Re: Luke 14:27 NRSV
« Reply #75 on: September 07, 2010, 06:59:58 PM »
What? We would never do such a thing, Craig, and risk further offending the ever-offended one here.

Edward Engelbrecht

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Re: Luke 14:27 NRSV
« Reply #76 on: September 07, 2010, 07:16:29 PM »
Is that a tease for the forthcoming ESV Lutheran Apocrypha?   ;)

Why, that would be shameless plugging, as would mentioning that there is a detailed description on my blog. So, no I was simply illustrating that the idea of voluntary suffering for the true God was a commonplace idea among Jews and therefore was also found among early Christians. Jesus said it and lived it.

"Fight even to the death for the truth, and the Lord God will fight for you" (Ecclesiasticus 4:28).

LutherMan

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Re: Luke 14:27 NRSV
« Reply #77 on: September 07, 2010, 07:19:54 PM »
I just love you CPH types and the rich catechesis you bring us.  I only pray the Geneva Night-Owl may learn something in his Hoary-Headed days.

ptmccain

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Re: Luke 14:27 NRSV
« Reply #78 on: September 07, 2010, 07:23:44 PM »

Edward Engelbrecht

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Re: Luke 14:27 NRSV
« Reply #79 on: September 07, 2010, 08:02:20 PM »
EE, would you be referring to this blog post:

http://lutheranwriter.blogspot.com/2010/05/apocrypha-lutheran-edition-with-notes.html

?

Yes, that would be it. (That reminds me, I need to blog something about the new Hebrew Reader.) In the interest of balancing comments, there's a fine volume from Fortress Press dealing with biblical interpretation during the same period:

Mikra : text, translation, reading, and interpretation of the Hebrew Bible in ancient Judaism and early Christianity / editor, Martin Jan Mulder ; executive editor, Harry Sysling (Assen : Van Gorcum ; Minneapolis : Fortress Press, 1990).

Now everyone can smile with us.  :)

Kevin Palmer

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Re: Luke 14:27 NRSV
« Reply #80 on: September 08, 2010, 11:52:27 AM »
The Greek says very explicitly "his own cross" (heautou). So it isn't some generic or transcendental cross here, but one's own. I think that does make a difference, and I'm disappointed that the NRSV permits confusion.

What puzzles me about the verse is that the use of the word "cross" is pretty clearly metaphorical -- I assume to mean a burden or suffering of some sort, at least that's how it would be understood today. Clearly not everyone at the time was crucified or even martyred for their discipleship, so the meaning isn't literal. And while "crucifying" can be used metaphorically to mean put to death, it seems too early (to me) for the cross itself to have taken this kind of metaphorical meaning. I think it wasn't until much later that the cross was used as a symbol for the Christian faith. Wouldn't the hearers of this text have understood something like, "Everyone must sit in their own electric chair if they wish to become my disciple."?

Steve Helmreich
Las Cruces, NM

But we do literally bear our cross -- the cross we were marked with in Holy Baptism.  This cross makes us targets for persecution and difficulties in the world.  As Bonhoeffer put it (with apologies to those who need inclusive language), "When Christ calls a man, He bids him come and die."  So yes, our cross-bearing is metaphorical in a sense, but also quite literal.

Michael Slusser

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Re: Luke 14:27 NRSV
« Reply #81 on: September 08, 2010, 12:30:14 PM »
The Greek says very explicitly "his own cross" (heautou). So it isn't some generic or transcendental cross here, but one's own. I think that does make a difference, and I'm disappointed that the NRSV permits confusion.

What puzzles me about the verse is that the use of the word "cross" is pretty clearly metaphorical -- I assume to mean a burden or suffering of some sort, at least that's how it would be understood today. Clearly not everyone at the time was crucified or even martyred for their discipleship, so the meaning isn't literal. And while "crucifying" can be used metaphorically to mean put to death, it seems too early (to me) for the cross itself to have taken this kind of metaphorical meaning. I think it wasn't until much later that the cross was used as a symbol for the Christian faith. Wouldn't the hearers of this text have understood something like, "Everyone must sit in their own electric chair if they wish to become my disciple."?

Steve Helmreich
Las Cruces, NM
That's a very thoughtful comment. The place that seems a bit weak to me is "it seems too early (to me) for the cross itself to have taken this kind of metaphorical meaning."

It is early--hard to imagine, in fact--if these are the very words of Jesus uttered during his earthly ministry. But if the reference to the cross is a specification by the gospel writer of the extent to which discipleship makes demands upon us, I don't think the metaphorical use is "too early." I think that the first Christians very quickly realized all kinds of things, from the divinity of Jesus on down. To follow Jesus would immediately bring up the vision of the path that he had just walked for our salvation.

Peace,
Michael
Fr. Michael Slusser
Retired Roman Catholic priest and theologian

Edward Engelbrecht

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Re: Luke 14:27 NRSV
« Reply #82 on: September 08, 2010, 02:02:41 PM »
Check the article on "crucifixion" in the Anchor Bible Dictionary. The Persians and others were practicing crucifixion long before the Romans, some 500 years before the crucifixion of our Lord. It was a well-known form of punishment in the Ancient Near East. As a consequence, Jesus' statement seems well within the cultural context. There is no contextual reason to push for a late date.

In fact, Jesus also mentioned crucifixion a bit earlier in Lk 9:23.

Mike Bennett

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Re: Luke 14:27 NRSV
« Reply #83 on: September 08, 2010, 05:08:48 PM »
The Greek says very explicitly "his own cross" (heautou). So it isn't some generic or transcendental cross here, but one's own. I think that does make a difference, and I'm disappointed that the NRSV permits confusion.

What puzzles me about the verse is that the use of the word "cross" is pretty clearly metaphorical -- I assume to mean a burden or suffering of some sort, at least that's how it would be understood today. Clearly not everyone at the time was crucified or even martyred for their discipleship, so the meaning isn't literal. And while "crucifying" can be used metaphorically to mean put to death, it seems too early (to me) for the cross itself to have taken this kind of metaphorical meaning. I think it wasn't until much later that the cross was used as a symbol for the Christian faith. Wouldn't the hearers of this text have understood something like, "Everyone must sit in their own electric chair if they wish to become my disciple."?

Steve Helmreich
Las Cruces, NM

But we do literally bear our cross -- the cross we were marked with in Holy Baptism.  This cross makes us targets for persecution and difficulties in the world.  As Bonhoeffer put it (with apologies to those who need inclusive language), "When Christ calls a man, He bids him come and die."  So yes, our cross-bearing is metaphorical in a sense, but also quite literal.

This sort of intentional mis-translation in the name of some sort of -ism (anti-sexism, I guess) is especially problematic when it's done to a passage such as this one, that demands we wrestle with it.  How am I to wrestle with the words of Christ when they're intentionally mis-translated?  Wrestling with what it might mean to bear "the cross" involves me in a different exercise than considering the implications of bearing "my" cross.  This is a reason I almost always avoid paraphrased editions of the Bible (except for occasional comparisons), because the paraphraser has made the passage clearly say one thing which it might or might not mean, and I'd never know it if I only read that edition of the Bible.  Yet we in ELCA are given the NRSV as a version that's presumed to be most appropriate for worship and study, and we naively think it's really a translation instead of an anti-sixism paraphrase.

Mike Bennett
“What peace can there be, so long as the many whoredoms and sorceries of your mother Jezebel continue?”  2 Kings 9:22

Edward Engelbrecht

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Re: Luke 14:27 NRSV
« Reply #84 on: September 09, 2010, 07:56:14 PM »
I was going over queries with a colleague today and came across this passage:

"[The best men] were whipped with rods and their bodies were torn to pieces, and were crucified while they were still alive and breathed. . . . [women] were upon the crosses" (Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, Book 12:256).

It describes events from the reign of Antiochus IV Epiphanes before the Maccabean Revolt (c. 167 BC).