Author Topic: Luke 14:27 NRSV  (Read 5219 times)

dkeener

  • Guest
Luke 14:27 NRSV
« on: September 02, 2010, 01:38:43 PM »
I am working on my sermon and just noticed that the the NRSV (which is in our bulletins) translates Luke 14:27:

“Whoever does not carry the cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.”  

The old RSV (and just about every other bible I own) translates it:

"Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple."

Any help from our Greek scholars - is it "The cross" or "his own cross" and does it make a difference?
« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 01:42:25 PM by dkeener »

LutherMan

  • Guest
Re: Luke 14:27 NRSV
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2010, 01:47:01 PM »
ESV says bear his own cross, and, I want a copy of your sermon when it is finished, if you'd be so kind. 

Michael Slusser

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 5336
    • View Profile
Re: Luke 14:27 NRSV
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2010, 01:48:57 PM »
The Greek says very explicitly "his own cross" (heautou). So it isn't some generic or transcendental cross here, but one's own. I think that does make a difference, and I'm disappointed that the NRSV permits confusion.

Peace,
Michael
Fr. Michael Slusser
Retired Roman Catholic priest and theologian

edoughty

  • Guest
Re: Luke 14:27 NRSV
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2010, 01:52:15 PM »
While the greek does say "the cross of him", I suspect the NRSV changes it to "the cross" so that not only men are exhorted, in our current use of English.  They could have said "whoever does not bear his or her own cross" and that would have worked, too.

dkeener

  • Guest
Re: Luke 14:27 NRSV
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2010, 01:53:23 PM »
The Greek says very explicitly "his own cross" (heautou). So it isn't some generic or transcendental cross here, but one's own. I think that does make a difference, and I'm disappointed that the NRSV permits confusion.

Peace,
Michael

I'm disapointed that I didn't catch it before the bulletins were run.

Steverem

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 1581
    • View Profile
Re: Luke 14:27 NRSV
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2010, 02:43:44 PM »
While the greek does say "the cross of him", I suspect the NRSV changes it to "the cross" so that not only men are exhorted, in our current use of English.  They could have said "whoever does not bear his or her own cross" and that would have worked, too.

Thus, an example of where the actual meaning of a verse being changed unnecessarily in an attempt to be "gender neutral."  And people wonder why I don't use the NRSV . . .

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 43160
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: Luke 14:27 NRSV
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2010, 02:46:11 PM »
Today's New International Version has: "And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple."

The Greek for anyone interested is:

ὅστις οὐ βαστάζει
τὸν σταυρὸν ἑαυτοῦ
καὶ ἔρχεται ὀπίσω μου
οὐ δύναται εἶναί μου μαθητής.

Who/whoever/anyone/someone not bearing (present tense)
the cross of himself/(herself)/one's self (reflexive pronoun referring back to the "who/whoever/anyone/someone")
and is coming (present tense) behind me
is not able (present tense) to be my disciple.

Is it permissible, as TNIV did, to change the singular to plural to avoid gender pronouns?

"Those who are not bearing their own crosses and following behind me are not able to be my disciples."

Or change third person to second to avoid gender pronouns?

"If you are not bearing your own cross and following behind me, you are not able to be my disciples."

Do these convey the same message as the original?
« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 02:49:19 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Weedon

  • Guest
Re: Luke 14:27 NRSV
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2010, 02:54:51 PM »
Yeah, and what the Holy Spirit wrote wasn't all that bad either.  I think I'd go with that.  Like the ESV did...

dkeener

  • Guest
Re: Luke 14:27 NRSV
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2010, 03:00:03 PM »
Today's New International Version has: "And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple."

The Greek for anyone interested is:

ὅστις οὐ βαστάζει
τὸν σταυρὸν ἑαυτοῦ
καὶ ἔρχεται ὀπίσω μου
οὐ δύναται εἶναί μου μαθητής.

Who/whoever/anyone/someone not bearing (present tense)
the cross of himself/(herself)/one's self (reflexive pronoun referring back to the "who/whoever/anyone/someone")
and is coming (present tense) behind me
is not able (present tense) to be my disciple.

Is it permissible, as TNIV did, to change the singular to plural to avoid gender pronouns?

"Those who are not bearing their own crosses and following behind me are not able to be my disciples."

Or change third person to second to avoid gender pronouns?

"If you are not bearing your own cross and following behind me, you are not able to be my disciples."

Do these convey the same message as the original?

Yes, I think they do and the NRSV translated along similar lines in Luke 9:23. So I'm still wondering what the logic was behind the NRSV translation in 14:27.

peter_speckhard

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 17522
    • View Profile
Re: Luke 14:27 NRSV
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2010, 03:02:53 PM »
Yeah, and what the Holy Spirit wrote wasn't all that bad either.  I think I'd go with that.  Like the ESV did...
You know, now that I think about it, I don't think anyone in my experience has ever been confused as to whether female followers of Christ need to take up their own crosses and follow Him. No girl has ever asked in confirmation class if this applied to her, too. There has never been an palpable sense of relief among the women in Bible study that, thank goodness, that cross-bearing stuff didn't apply to them because a masculine pronoun was used. It's almost as if they understand English without the help of an inclusive language committee. Weird.

Weedon

  • Guest
Re: Luke 14:27 NRSV
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2010, 03:04:21 PM »
You too, huh?  Yeah, really weird.  Just like they sort of GET IT and no one has taught them to take offense or anything (yet).

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 43160
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: Luke 14:27 NRSV
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2010, 03:05:24 PM »
Yeah, and what the Holy Spirit wrote wasn't all that bad either.  I think I'd go with that.  Like the ESV did...

Well, the ESV isn't really what the Holy Spirit wrote, but a translation of the God-breathed Greek.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Weedon

  • Guest
Re: Luke 14:27 NRSV
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2010, 03:06:46 PM »
It HAS to be inspired, Brian.  CPH published it.  ;)  (Paul, I'll collect later...)

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 43160
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: Luke 14:27 NRSV
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2010, 03:12:04 PM »
It HAS to be inspired, Brian.  CPH published it.  ;)  (Paul, I'll collect later...)

Are you sure? According to the info I have the ESV was published in 2001 in Wheaton, Illinois by Crossway Bibles (a division of Good News Publishers).
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Weedon

  • Guest
Re: Luke 14:27 NRSV
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2010, 03:21:11 PM »
Yes, Good News holds the copyright, but CPH publishes it in The Lutheran Study Bible (you really need one!) and all our LSB materials.