What did you expect from CNLC/ELCA when it was forming?

[edoughty]

Just a reflection...  A Unitarian-Universalist would be absoluetly comfortable with such a statement.

Pax Christi;
Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS

I think that's a bit overblown, Pr. Kliner. According to the www.uua.org website, they are much less specific than Pr. Stoffregen:

Unitarian Universalism is a liberal religion that embraces theological diversity. Our faith has evolved through a long history with origins in European Christian traditions. Unitarian Universalism today is the result of the 1961 consolidation of the American Unitarian Association and the Universalist Church of America. To learn more about the history and evolution of our faith, please see History.

While our congregations uphold shared principles, individual Unitarian Universalists may discern their own beliefs about theological issues. As there is no official Unitarian Universalist creed, Unitarian Universalists are free to search for truth on many paths.

We welcome people who identify with and draw inspiration from Atheism and Agnosticism, Buddhism, Christianity, Humanism, Judaism, Paganism, and other religious or philosophical traditions.

To take but one example: the Gospel of Jesus Christ makes no appearance in the UU statement!

Peace,
Michael

Indeed.  Nor the words "grace" and "sinners", both of which Brian used.

[LutherMan]

I have to admit that back then, my only expectation was that all the people involved were faithful Lutheran Christians with no hidden agendas or personal goals, and they would do what was right, as guided by the Holy Spirit.

I was sure naive.

George,
Do you believe that hidden agendas and/or personal goals helped shape the ELCA into what she is today?

[George Erdner]

I have to admit that back then, my only expectation was that all the people involved were faithful Lutheran Christians with no hidden agendas or personal goals, and they would do what was right, as guided by the Holy Spirit.

I was sure naive.

George,
Do you believe that hidden agendas and/or personal goals helped shape the ELCA into what she is today?

Yes.

[Charles_Austin]

Let's see.
It took several years of discussions to even decide to go ahead with the merger, then several more years of discussion to agree to do it; all involving decisions which were widely discussed on the synodical level. Then it took the approval of national conventions of the ALC, LCA, and AELC and the constituting convention of the ELCA to bring it about.
Oh, yes; lots and lots of opportunities to hide agendas and "personal goals" in that process.
Mr. Erdner, who I'll bet, didn't even know that a merger was going on or if he did, understand how it was to be accomplished has a very interesting case of reverse-ahistorical-paranoia, an almost humorous aberration in thinking which says "Hey, way back there, someone was trying to sneak something that I don't like past me even though I wasn't even there."
Like it or don't like it, folks, but the thought that the ELCA merger was some sneaky deal is laughable.

[Steve Britsch]

Charles,
Some of us where in school when all this took place.  As the years have passed it has become clear that it is not the same church I grew up in.  I recall as a youth, that our church lost some of it's most active members at that time.  Things have a way of coming around as many of us are now joining them in worship.

Steve Britsch
AKA Beancounter (I will state my name when I reply to you as long as you don't correct my English...deal?  )

Like it or don't like it, folks, but the thought that the ELCA merger was some sneaky deal is laughable.

[Charles_Austin]

Steven Britsch writes:
Some of us where in school when all this took place. As the years have passed it has become clear that it is not the same church I grew up in. 
I comment:
It is not the church that I grew up in either. And it should not be.
This is not the country I grew up in, nor the world into which I was born.
If this were the "church that I grew up in," I don't think I would want to attend that church in 2010.

Steven Britsch writes:
I recall as a youth, that our church lost some of it's most active members at that time.  Things have a way of coming around as many of us are now joining them in worship.
I comment:
I recall as a youth that we lost a few active members when the Service Book and Hymnal was published and when the mergers that formed the LCA and the ALC took place.
So?

[Steve Britsch]

Are you saying what I learned in Sunday School and confirmation no longer applies?  Well it must not apply because it's not what is being taught now.  The last I looked the Bible has not changed.  I understand there are many who believe they are more enlightened than God's word but I can not subscribe to that thought.  Anyway, I do not feel what I learned as a youth no longer applies.  When I was a youth my church was a home to both liberals and conservatives.  Now it's a home to liberals and conservatives who are wondering what happened to their church.  That is what is most unfortunate.  You feel at home as you are liberal and that is great for you and I don't expect you to understand how others feel.  For us we simply need to find a church that we too can feel comfortable in and I would hope you could appreciate that need.  It's not bad/wrong...just the way it has all shaken out. 

Thanks for not correcting my English.  I'm a bean counter after all.

Steven Britsch writes:
Some of us where in school when all this took place. As the years have passed it has become clear that it is not the same church I grew up in. 
I comment:
It is not the church that I grew up in either. And it should not be.
This is not the country I grew up in, nor the world into which I was born.
If this were the "church that I grew up in," I don't think I would want to attend that church in 2010.

Steven Britsch writes:
I recall as a youth, that our church lost some of it's most active members at that time.  Things have a way of coming around as many of us are now joining them in worship.
I comment:
I recall as a youth that we lost a few active members when the Service Book and Hymnal was published and when the mergers that formed the LCA and the ALC took place.
So?

[Scotty8284]

Let's see.
It took several years of discussions to even decide to go ahead with the merger, then several more years of discussion to agree to do it; all involving decisions which were widely discussed on the synodical level. Then it took the approval of national conventions of the ALC, LCA, and AELC and the constituting convention of the ELCA to bring it about.
Oh, yes; lots and lots of opportunities to hide agendas and "personal goals" in that process.
Mr. Erdner, who I'll bet, didn't even know that a merger was going on or if he did, understand how it was to be accomplished has a very interesting case of reverse-ahistorical-paranoia, an almost humorous aberration in thinking which says "Hey, way back there, someone was trying to sneak something that I don't like past me even though I wasn't even there."
Like it or don't like it, folks, but the thought that the ELCA merger was some sneaky deal is laughable.

It is obvious the ELCA merger was not a sneaky deal.  What was the hidden agenda was the structure of the church and it's promise of faithful adherance to the scriptures and confessions.  One only had to look at who actually served on the commission to be wary of what the outcome will be.   Although "only" a layman, my investigation of the people serving on the CNLC and some of their writings made me wonder what was really going on.  It only takes one bad apple to spoil the barrel, and unfortunately I feel there may have been more than one bad apple.

When it came time to vote on the adoption of the constitution at Synod assemblies, it could only be an up or down vote.  No ammendments could be adopted without jeorpadizing the whole thing.  I know that for a fact because I offered an amendment that was adopted the first day of our Synod assembly, and then watched the wheels of power turn quickly to have that amendment turned over on the next day of the assembly.  We werre told specifically that amendments could be offered, but could not be passed without threatening the birth of this new Church, which was too important a thing to let anything stand in the way.  To use the all too tired expression, the train was leaving the station and you either had to be on board or get run over.

[J. Thomas Shelley]

  We werre told specifically that amendments could be offered, but could not be passed without threatening the birth of this new Church, which was too important a thing to let anything stand in the way.  To use the all too tired expression, the train was leaving the station and you either had to be on board or get run over.

Hmmmm.....didn't  a similar  thing happen ten days ago in Grove City, Ohio?

IIRC the moderator said there wasn't time to deal with amendments, so please don't offer them as formal motions.

[George Erdner]

As I've said before, one can either give the people who did something credit for knowing what they are doing, and make the assumption that the final product was what they wanted it to be, or one can assume that they were incompetent, and the final product was the result of them doing an incredible bad job.

I give the CNLC credit for doing things right, and making the finished product into what they wanted it to be. So, by examining their work, one can determine what they wanted to accomplish.

[James_Gale]

  We werre told specifically that amendments could be offered, but could not be passed without threatening the birth of this new Church, which was too important a thing to let anything stand in the way.  To use the all too tired expression, the train was leaving the station and you either had to be on board or get run over.

Hmmmm.....didn't  a similar  thing happen ten days ago in Grove City, Ohio?

IIRC the moderator said there wasn't time to deal with amendments, so please don't offer them as formal motions.

There are a couple of very big differences.

The ELCA constitution was presented as a done deal.  The Grove City convocation approved a provisional constitution.  It almost certainly will be amended at its gathering next year.  The congregations and pastors belonging to the NALC will have substantial opportunity to suggest revisions before then.

The second difference is that NALC congregations will have ratification power. 

In all events, there are big downsides to revising governing documents from the floor of large assemblies.  It's risky to make changes without taking time to think through all the ramifications.  The possible unintended consequences should be understood before asking the assembly to vote.  This can't happen if amendments are made on the fly.

[George Erdner]

  We werre told specifically that amendments could be offered, but could not be passed without threatening the birth of this new Church, which was too important a thing to let anything stand in the way.  To use the all too tired expression, the train was leaving the station and you either had to be on board or get run over.

Hmmmm.....didn't  a similar  thing happen ten days ago in Grove City, Ohio?

IIRC the moderator said there wasn't time to deal with amendments, so please don't offer them as formal motions.

There are a couple of very big differences.

The ELCA constitution was presented as a done deal.  The Grove City convocation approved a provisional constitution.  It almost certainly will be amended at its gathering next year.  The congregations and pastors belonging to the NALC will have substantial opportunity to suggest revisions before then.

The second difference is that NALC congregations will have ratification power. 

In all events, there are big downsides to revising governing documents from the floor of large assemblies.  It's risky to make changes without taking time to think through all the ramifications.  The possible unintended consequences should be understood before asking the assembly to vote.  This can't happen if amendments are made on the fly.

To that list, you could add a few more items. When the ELCA was formed, there was no need to hurry. The ALC, LCA, and AELC were getting along fine. Another six months to a year of negotiations to get things right wouldn't have hurt the chances of the ELCA succeeding. The NALC has, as of their convocation, 18 congregations. It makes sense to work under a "provisional" constitution for a year in order for more congregations to join, and to get some real world track record to find out what things need adjustment and what things do not.

[Charles_Austin]

Steven Britsch writes:
Are you saying what I learned in Sunday School and confirmation no longer applies?  Well it must not apply because it's not what is being taught now.  The last I looked the Bible has not changed.
I comment:
No, but how we apply what we learned in Sunday School does change.

Steven Britsch writes:
I understand there are many who believe they are more enlightened than God's word but I can not subscribe to that thought.  Anyway, I do not feel what I learned as a youth no longer applies.  When I was a youth my church was a home to both liberals and conservatives.  Now it's a home to liberals and conservatives who are wondering what happened to their church.
I comment:
In some places. There are many parts of the ELCA, indeed it appears that the vast majority in the ELCA are not "wondering what happened to their church."

Steven Britsch writes:
You feel at home as you are liberal and that is great for you and I don't expect you to understand how others feel.
I comment:
No, that is not true. What I am finding here in this forum is that "liberals" are supposed to be all weeply about how the "traditionalists" "feel," while traditionalists can mock, deride and otherwise demean the church we we are not supposed to "feel" hurt.

Steven Britsch writes:
For us we simply need to find a church that we too can feel comfortable in and I would hope you could appreciate that need.  It's not bad/wrong...just the way it has all shaken out.
I comment:
Actually, I do not believe that the Lord gives us a church we can "feel comfortable in." Scripture and the gospel are constantly challenging my preconceptions, troubling by prejudices, calling me to places where I - if I only wanted "comfort" - would not choose to go.

[Marshall_Hahn]

  We werre told specifically that amendments could be offered, but could not be passed without threatening the birth of this new Church, which was too important a thing to let anything stand in the way.  To use the all too tired expression, the train was leaving the station and you either had to be on board or get run over.

Hmmmm.....didn't  a similar  thing happen ten days ago in Grove City, Ohio?

IIRC the moderator said there wasn't time to deal with amendments, so please don't offer them as formal motions.

Similar, but not the same.  The moderator "requested" that amendments not be formally offered, but be presented as suggestions that would be considered during the next year and brought to next year's convention.  And, in point of fact, amendments WERE presented and voted on at the convocation despite this request.

Marshall Hahn

[J. Thomas Shelley]

  We werre told specifically that amendments could be offered, but could not be passed without threatening the birth of this new Church, which was too important a thing to let anything stand in the way.  To use the all too tired expression, the train was leaving the station and you either had to be on board or get run over.

Hmmmm.....didn't  a similar  thing happen ten days ago in Grove City, Ohio?

IIRC the moderator said there wasn't time to deal with amendments, so please don't offer them as formal motions.

Similar, but not the same.  The moderator "requested" that amendments not be formally offered, but be presented as suggestions that would be considered during the next year and brought to next year's convention.  And, in point of fact, amendments WERE presented and voted on at the convocation despite this request.

Marshall Hahn

All very true:  I was there, and voted for the Provisional Constitution in spite of many serious reservations, not the least of which was how an assembly numbering near one thousand could make decisions for 18 congregations.

Having helped at many a country butchering the whole process reminded me of sausage making.