Poll

Should a Mosque be allowed to be built near Ground Zero, New York?

Yes
37 (50%)
No
32 (43.2%)
Don't know - No Opinion
5 (6.8%)

Total Members Voted: 36

Author Topic: Mosque at Ground Zero?  (Read 14086 times)

ptmccain

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Re: Mosque at Ground Zero?
« Reply #165 on: September 08, 2010, 01:35:53 PM »
OK, which is more "insensitive" ... putting up a building near, not at, Ground Zero, or burning the Koran?

jpetty

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Re: Mosque at Ground Zero?
« Reply #166 on: September 08, 2010, 01:56:58 PM »
Is it just coiincidence that all these self-appointed "experts" on Islam happen to be Bible-belt preachers?

Charles_Austin

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Re: Mosque at Ground Zero?
« Reply #167 on: September 08, 2010, 02:13:43 PM »
Matter of fact, I'm surprised that, since many "mainstream, liberal Protestant denominations" have denounced the Florida pastor, certain folks here have not come to his defense.

Jeremy Loesch

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Re: Mosque at Ground Zero?
« Reply #168 on: September 08, 2010, 02:18:12 PM »
Is it just coiincidence that all these self-appointed "experts" on Islam happen to be Bible-belt preachers?
Matter of fact, I'm surprised that, since many "mainstream, liberal Protestant denominations" have denounced the Florida pastor, certain folks here have not come to his defense.

It's a tie for nominations for the inane, non-germane post of the day!  And back-to-back too.  Take your pick.  You guys are good.  I'm very impressed.

Jeremy

A Lutheran pastor growing into all sorts of things.

GoCubsGo

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Re: Mosque at Ground Zero?
« Reply #169 on: September 08, 2010, 02:20:53 PM »
Matter of fact, I'm surprised that, since many "mainstream, liberal Protestant denominations" have denounced the Florida pastor, certain folks here have not come to his defense.
Even a broken clock is right twice a day!   ;D

Steverem

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Re: Mosque at Ground Zero?
« Reply #170 on: September 08, 2010, 02:24:57 PM »
Is it just coiincidence that all these self-appointed "experts" on Islam happen to be Bible-belt preachers?

Well, of course not.  We all know that evangelical Christians in the "Bible Belt" are mouth-breathing troglodytes that have no theological training, even less formal logic skills, and hate as sport.  Heck, they probably even all voted for George W. Bush.  They clearly lack the sophistication we liturgical types have.

For what it's worth, I work in an office full of "Bible Belt" evangelicals, and I have heard nothing but complete, unqualified rejection of this Koran burning.  (And who are "all these" experts?  I'm only hearing about one attention-seeking pastor of a small church doing this.  Are you aware of anyone of any gravitas endorsing this event?)

Scott6

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Re: Mosque at Ground Zero?
« Reply #171 on: September 08, 2010, 02:25:42 PM »
While the issue of the appropriateness of expanding the mosque / Islamic center at / near Ground Zero is an important one for folks as Americans, what I'm less convinced about is that it has anything to do with the Christian witness given by a church burning Qur'ans.

Like I said earlier, I find it to be sheer idiocy, especially as the pastor has gone on record on the Today show saying that he believes that it will wake up Muslims to the reality of the violence of their religion.  If he really believes that, then either he doesn't have the first clue about how these things are perceived by Muslims or he's quite aware of it and is enjoying his moment in the sun or he wants to push the "clash of civilizations" thesis.  I suppose there are other options out there as well, but these are the first three that come to mind.

Burning a Qur'an, especially in such a public display, does nothing to communicate the love of God in Jesus Christ.  It does communicate hatred and militancy, though, thereby sowing seeds that will yield a harvest of violence.

jpetty

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Re: Mosque at Ground Zero?
« Reply #172 on: September 08, 2010, 02:47:10 PM »
Matter of fact, I'm surprised that, since many "mainstream, liberal Protestant denominations" have denounced the Florida pastor, certain folks here have not come to his defense.

Not to defend the guy, but does it bother anyone that a military general has asked people to curtail their right of free speech?

grabau14

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Re: Mosque at Ground Zero?
« Reply #173 on: September 08, 2010, 03:06:53 PM »
While the issue of the appropriateness of expanding the mosque / Islamic center at / near Ground Zero is an important one for folks as Americans, what I'm less convinced about is that it has anything to do with the Christian witness given by a church burning Qur'ans.

Like I said earlier, I find it to be sheer idiocy, especially as the pastor has gone on record on the Today show saying that he believes that it will wake up Muslims to the reality of the violence of their religion.  If he really believes that, then either he doesn't have the first clue about how these things are perceived by Muslims or he's quite aware of it and is enjoying his moment in the sun or he wants to push the "clash of civilizations" thesis.  I suppose there are other options out there as well, but these are the first three that come to mind.

Burning a Qur'an, especially in such a public display, does nothing to communicate the love of God in Jesus Christ.  It does communicate hatred and militancy, though, thereby sowing seeds that will yield a harvest of violence.

He is a pastor of a congregation of 50.  If anyone is to blame in this it is the media.  They are having a field day with this because it fits with their template that all Evangelical Christians are like this.

ptmccain

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Re: Mosque at Ground Zero?
« Reply #174 on: September 08, 2010, 03:08:49 PM »
The pastor in question is a nut job, through and through.

Here are the "rules" of their Academy.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/file/dove-church-rulebook

Dan Fienen

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Re: Mosque at Ground Zero?
« Reply #175 on: September 08, 2010, 03:10:25 PM »
Matter of fact, I'm surprised that, since many "mainstream, liberal Protestant denominations" have denounced the Florida pastor, certain folks here have not come to his defense.
You have often complained here about how you are treated, stereotyped, and denegrated by other participants in these fora.  You have complained about how some tend to clump people together for categorical put downs.  I suppose your justification for this post is that since others have behaved badly, you are justified in doing the same.  Oh, yes, did I mention how you have complained how some justify their bad behavior by the bad behavior of others.

If you are going to accuse some who post on these fora ("certain folks here") of defending this pastor's projected Qu'ran burning, or at least of being the sort of unthinking, knee jerk reacting people who would naturally support such an action simply because many "mainstream, liberal Protestant denominations" have opposed him, please, trot out the names of those whom you accuse.  Where is your evidence, or do your broadside slaps at your fellow Lutherans (or do you not recognize people like that as fellow Lutherans) not need specificity?  Please, lay out your accusations so that we all know who you regard thus.

Dan
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

Charles_Austin

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Re: Mosque at Ground Zero?
« Reply #176 on: September 08, 2010, 03:12:12 PM »
Good grief, jpetty! This has nothing to do with a general asking anyone to curtail the right of free speech. Your comment is really strange.

Double good grief, Pastor Uttenreither! You would have to make a leap worthy of a nuclear-powered kangaroo to come to the conclusion that this guy gets press in order to make evangelicals look bad. Get over yourself.

ptmccain

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Comments by Pastor Walther on the Burning of the Qur'an
« Reply #177 on: September 08, 2010, 03:12:15 PM »
No, not that Pastor Walther, I'm referring to Pastor Michael Walther, senior pastor of a large LCMS congregation in the St. Louis metro area. Here is what he had to say:

The announcement by a pastor in Florida to burn the Qur'an in a public protest has raised concerns by many. Foremost among the concerns is that radical Muslims will use the event and the images it generates as propaganda to incite violence against Christians.

The violent activities of radical Muslims, the rampant religious intolerance in Muslim countries, and the hair-trigger sensitivity to any criticism of Islam frustrates many non-Muslims. But will it serve any purpose to use their own tactics? Absolutely not!

The rising tide of Islam could not be possible without God's allowance. Before we fall into the temptation to "fight fire with fire," we need to think of our basic Christian principles. Christianity is not a religion that relies on physical force or violent protests. Christianity moves forward on the proclamation of God's word of grace in Jesus and deeds of mercy done for the sake of our neighbors.

Luther and his countrymen faced a much worse situation with the invasion of the Muslim Turks in the 1500s. Luther considered this invasion nothing less than punishment from God for a church and a society that had drifted from God's word. He called the church to repentance and to renewal through the word of God. Could the American Christian church and culture stand a little reforming? I certainly think so!

And what did he think about the Qur'an? Luther called for its publication and encouraged Christians to read it! He knew that side by side, the Bible would overwhelm the Qur'an with its truth and with its message of salvation.

revjagow

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Re: Mosque at Ground Zero?
« Reply #178 on: September 08, 2010, 03:14:59 PM »

Burning a Qur'an, especially in such a public display, does nothing to communicate the love of God in Jesus Christ.  It does communicate hatred and militancy, though, thereby sowing seeds that will yield a harvest of violence.

This is simply incredible on so many levels.   I just watched a short BBC story and I'm just flummoxed.  First, there is the fact that a "pastor" of a church of 50 is responsible for street demonstrations around the world. ...what?  Second, there is the sheer... I don't even know what to call it when a single act can inspire such visceral disgust in me.  Its an act that shows complete and utter disdain for a group of people and add to that the potential danger this puts our troops in overseas... argh! 

Its interesting.  Watching this taps into the same gut-wrenching anger I felt sitting in the sanctuary after 9-11.  I was so angry over the senseless loss and the total giving in to evil that I had to pray long and hard for the Lord to take it away.  This guy is the same.  He is showing the same exact disdain for human life.  He may not be putting a plane into a building, but he is sending the same message of hate and helping to perpetuate this unending cycle.  I don't even want to discuss it in the same breath as the Islamic Center.  That has to do with what is appropriate and being appropriately sensitive.  The Florida burning is more than inappropriate - its the old serpent enjoying every moment this gets broadcast and every angry reaction it inspires. 

Unfortunately, this guy has the right to demonstrate in this way on his property.  Just like someone had the right to put an image of Christ in piss and throw dung on the Virgin Mary.  Someone can live in this country and enjoy all the rights and freedoms that people have died for and still burn the American flag.  Sure.  And in this glorious age of information, it gets harder and harder to just ignore the attention seekers who like to experiment in the profane.  It would certainly be nice if someone could arrange a little EMP centered around this church in Gainesville right at the time of the demonstration, wouldn't it?  Nothing so large it would take planes out of the air, but big enough to disable all the digital cameras, phones and computers. Let this guy do it, but have the world cover its eyes for just that moment!  Of course, what would stop him from doing it again?  Still... prayers are ascending. 

I plan on enjoying Saturday at the Open House at the Kennedy Center.  Lots of free activities for the family.  A Mexican theme for all of us familia in D.C..  I'm sure there will be plenty of horrible images to look at when I get home and on magazine covers the following week.  Kyrie, elision!
Soli Deo Gloria!

revjagow

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Re: Comments by Pastor Walther on the Burning of the Qur'an
« Reply #179 on: September 08, 2010, 03:16:19 PM »
No, not that Pastor Walther, I'm referring to Pastor Michael Walther, senior pastor of a large LCMS congregation in the St. Louis metro area. Here is what he had to say:

The announcement by a pastor in Florida to burn the Qur'an in a public protest has raised concerns by many. Foremost among the concerns is that radical Muslims will use the event and the images it generates as propaganda to incite violence against Christians.

The violent activities of radical Muslims, the rampant religious intolerance in Muslim countries, and the hair-trigger sensitivity to any criticism of Islam frustrates many non-Muslims. But will it serve any purpose to use their own tactics? Absolutely not!

The rising tide of Islam could not be possible without God's allowance. Before we fall into the temptation to "fight fire with fire," we need to think of our basic Christian principles. Christianity is not a religion that relies on physical force or violent protests. Christianity moves forward on the proclamation of God's word of grace in Jesus and deeds of mercy done for the sake of our neighbors.

Luther and his countrymen faced a much worse situation with the invasion of the Muslim Turks in the 1500s. Luther considered this invasion nothing less than punishment from God for a church and a society that had drifted from God's word. He called the church to repentance and to renewal through the word of God. Could the American Christian church and culture stand a little reforming? I certainly think so!

And what did he think about the Qur'an? Luther called for its publication and encouraged Christians to read it! He knew that side by side, the Bible would overwhelm the Qur'an with its truth and with its message of salvation.

This was very cool and cool-headed.  Much more focused than my angry rant.  Thanks!
Soli Deo Gloria!