Dr. Root became Catholic?

Started by Jay, August 15, 2010, 11:04:46 PM

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Team Hesse

Quote from: ptmccain on August 24, 2010, 09:14:52 PM
I doubt any CORE student would go through a LCMS seminary program for three years and come out still thinking that the ordination of women is a Biblical or Confessional concept.

BUT --
it's been my experience that most LCMS pastors, faculty, and students would make their point by respectful interaction and not by ridicule, shaming, bullying, or any of the other coercive tactics mentioned above.
When I've been in venues (and I go to a number of them) with LCMS pastors, they don't go out of their way to find out what points of theology as I confess it may be weak, or, in their view, heretical.  I am aware of some of the tactics that traditionalist folks at Luther or Wartburg have had to endure, and I must say I've not seen or experienced anything close to that at St. Louis or Ft. Wayne about any issue, let alone women's ordination. 
Lou

DCharlton

If I went to the local meeting of the Republican party and espoused boilerplate Democratic party positions, I'd expect a negative reaction.  The same would be true for a Republican at at Democratic party meeting.  All communities have their boundaries.  They have ideas that are anathema.  There are insider and outsiders.  All political and social groups are self regulating.

The same is true for groups in the church.  No seminary can be all things to all people.  What offends me most is the denial that such boundary lines exist and that all bound consciences are respected.  It is bunk.
David Charlton  

Was Algul Siento a divinity school?

grabau

justified and sinner does not know what he is talking about.  In RC theology purgatory is not a permanent destination but ante chamber of heaven.  grabau

ddrebes

Quote from: ptmccain on August 24, 2010, 09:14:52 PM
I doubt any CORE student would go through a LCMS seminary program for three years and come out still thinking that the ordination of women is a Biblical or Confessional concept.

Why not? I know some LCMS pastors who managed to do just that!

Scott6

Quote from: Team Hesse on August 24, 2010, 10:12:07 PM
Quote from: ptmccain on August 24, 2010, 09:14:52 PM
I doubt any CORE student would go through a LCMS seminary program for three years and come out still thinking that the ordination of women is a Biblical or Confessional concept.

BUT --
it's been my experience that most LCMS pastors, faculty, and students would make their point by respectful interaction and not by ridicule, shaming, bullying, or any of the other coercive tactics mentioned above.
When I've been in venues (and I go to a number of them) with LCMS pastors, they don't go out of their way to find out what points of theology as I confess it may be weak, or, in their view, heretical.  I am aware of some of the tactics that traditionalist folks at Luther or Wartburg have had to endure, and I must say I've not seen or experienced anything close to that at St. Louis or Ft. Wayne about any issue, let alone women's ordination. 
Lou

My experience is that when I went to seminary, I believed in women's ordination, having recently come from Luther and the hermeneutic in use there.  What I found was that over an extended period of study in hermeneutics and theology on topics that were not directly related to WO in any way, I discovered that I could not hold to certain teachings consistently while holding to WO.  This realization came as I began to study about the so-called "New Perspective" on Paul and discovered heremeneutical methods that would both authorize WO and call into question the teaching of justification.  It was a watershed for me, and I realized that as much as I prized (note agency and the emphasis upon what I liked) WO, I could no longer hold it.

And no, there was never any type of inquisition or questioning to ferret out secret WO supporters but rather the kind, patient and consistent (and fun!) teaching of the faith as it has been handed down.  That's how it should be.

Christopher Miller

Lou - please pass that information on to Publisher McCain. I know of some of his other arguments in other places, and that tactic has not been taken.

Virgil - the times, they have a-changed. Nestingen has been pushed out, many of those you mentioned have passed, and we have worship services like the one my senior year (06-07) led by the "ecumenical director", where the congregation said half of the WoI. The oasis in the desert was my advisor, Steven Paulson, who was also my ordinator. There are still enough orthodox teachers there to get a decent education, but the lack of respect and knowledge of the problems is mind-boggling.

ptmccain

Quote from: S. Yak. on August 25, 2010, 08:02:06 AM
Quote from: Team Hesse on August 24, 2010, 10:12:07 PM
Quote from: ptmccain on August 24, 2010, 09:14:52 PM
I doubt any CORE student would go through a LCMS seminary program for three years and come out still thinking that the ordination of women is a Biblical or Confessional concept.

BUT --
it's been my experience that most LCMS pastors, faculty, and students would make their point by respectful interaction and not by ridicule, shaming, bullying, or any of the other coercive tactics mentioned above.
When I've been in venues (and I go to a number of them) with LCMS pastors, they don't go out of their way to find out what points of theology as I confess it may be weak, or, in their view, heretical.  I am aware of some of the tactics that traditionalist folks at Luther or Wartburg have had to endure, and I must say I've not seen or experienced anything close to that at St. Louis or Ft. Wayne about any issue, let alone women's ordination. 
Lou

My experience is that when I went to seminary, I believed in women's ordination, having recently come from Luther and the hermeneutic in use there.  What I found was that over an extended period of study in hermeneutics and theology on topics that were not directly related to WO in any way, I discovered that I could not hold to certain teachings consistently while holding to WO.  This realization came as I began to study about the so-called "New Perspective" on Paul and discovered heremeneutical methods that would both authorize WO and call into question the teaching of justification.  It was a watershed for me, and I realized that as much as I prized (note agency and the emphasis upon what I liked) WO, I could no longer hold it.

And no, there was never any type of inquisition or questioning to ferret out secret WO supporters but rather the kind, patient and consistent (and fun!) teaching of the faith as it has been handed down.  That's how it should be.

Thanks for sharing this.

Virgil

Quote from: Christopher Miller on August 25, 2010, 08:20:57 AM
Lou - please pass that information on to Publisher McCain. I know of some of his other arguments in other places, and that tactic has not been taken.

Virgil - the times, they have a-changed. Nestingen has been pushed out, many of those you mentioned have passed, and we have worship services like the one my senior year (06-07) led by the "ecumenical director", where the congregation said half of the WoI. The oasis in the desert was my advisor, Steven Paulson, who was also my ordinator. There are still enough orthodox teachers there to get a decent education, but the lack of respect and knowledge of the problems is mind-boggling.

I have no doubt times changed, Pastor. I am sorry you couldn't see Luther Sem at its best. There really was a glorious time once. The sad thing is, it wasn't all that long ago. Fight the good fight, Pastor!

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: Christopher Miller on August 25, 2010, 08:20:57 AM
where the congregation said half of the WoI.

That's not new. My intern supervisor ('74-'75) had the congregation read the Words of Institution. I didn't and don't agree with that, and have never done it.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

Steven Tibbetts

Quote from: George Erdner on August 24, 2010, 05:40:57 PM
But if such pastors are few and far between, then the basic premise that recent graduates of ELCA seminaries are not likely to be theologically orthodox is not disproven.


But that was not the basic premise I rebutted.  The premise to which I objected, and to which I will continue to object is that ELCA congregations can have no reasonable hope that they will receive confessionally orthodox graduates from their seminaries.  That simply is not so.  I continue to meet recent graduates from ELCA seminaries who are confessionally orthodox, including at last year's CWA, at Retreats of the Society of the Holy Trinity, and (most recently) at this week's conference and convocations in Columbus.

spt+
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
Pastor Zip's Blog

George Erdner

Quote from: The Rev. Steven P. Tibbetts, STS on August 28, 2010, 01:09:05 AM
Quote from: George Erdner on August 24, 2010, 05:40:57 PM
But if such pastors are few and far between, then the basic premise that recent graduates of ELCA seminaries are not likely to be theologically orthodox is not disproven.


But that was not the basic premise I rebutted.  The premise to which I objected, and to which I will continue to object is that ELCA congregations can have no reasonable hope that they will receive confessionally orthodox graduates from their seminaries.  That simply is not so.  I continue to meet recent graduates from ELCA seminaries who are confessionally orthodox, including at last year's CWA, at Retreats of the Society of the Holy Trinity, and (most recently) at this week's conference and convocations in Columbus.

spt+

OK, if you're going to insist on picking nits, what percentage of ELCA Seminary graduates must be confessionally orthodox for a congregation to have a "reasonable" hope that any recent graduate of an ELCA seminary sent to them by their bishop's office for consideration in order for it to be "reasonable"? Is having only 1 out of every 10 "reasonable", or would 4 out of 5 be "reasonable"? If you insist on picking nits about what is "reasonable", then it is only reasonable that you articulate more specifically what you mean by "reasonable".

I said "not likely", which I interpret as meaning that less than half of the graduates of ELCA seminaries can be expected to be "confessionally orthodox".

Timotheus Verinus

I moved my replies off of this Dr Root thread, and over to the Sem for new bodies thread.

TV
TAALC Pastor

pr dtp

Quote from: grabau on August 24, 2010, 10:59:38 PM
justified and sinner does not know what he is talking about.  In RC theology purgatory is not a permanent destination but ante chamber of heaven.  grabau

I never said it was permanent, but it is torment, and it is separation from God and according to RCC doctrine, it isn't a short time.  Describing it as an ante-chamber is sort of like describing Hell as the basement.

Too bad the judgment scenes never mention it as an option.....

ptmccain

Of course, there is no "ante chamber" to heaven, but...do carry on.

Weedon

No, but "each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done" and "if anyone's work is burned he, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."  The glory of the Day of our Lord's Appearing may well involve an "ouch" before it is an "ah."  All of which is not to allow for the peculiarly Roman notion of purgatory, but of the ancient teaching of purgation - something our Symbols do note in Ap. XII:70 - the purification of imperfect souls. 

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